SPEAKER_04 0:05

Success in ocean.

SPEAKER_05 0:22

Success in motion.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

The sweet spot.

Welcome And Guest Bio

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Welcome everyone. Welcome back to the sweet spot. I'm Dr. Derek Sweet. It's so wonderful to have you all here. I'm very excited, sweet spotters, to introduce to you a great human being and a wonderful friend of mine, Dr. Linda LaSelle Bryant. And you're going to be treated to a uh just a fantastic conversation. Not because of me, but because of her. Okay? So without further ado, let me do this introduction. And it's gonna take me a minute to do this introduction because uh Linda, Dr. Bryant is just one of those people that you just have to respect what she's done. So I'm gonna embarrass her by doing a longer introduction than she would want, but I have to. Dr. Linda Lascelle Bryant is a clinician and a really excellent one. Somebody that I've worked with side by side and I've learned so much from. So she's a clinician, but she's more than that. She's an educator, wonderful teacher, an author. We talk about her books, a public sector leader. I've seen her interview some really big names and work with them. And a powerful voice for equity. A powerful voice for adaptive leadership and for systems change in social work and human services. I'm gonna pause there because we have to breathe with that. Clinician, educator, author, public sector leader, and the powerful voice for equity, adaptive leadership, and systems change. All in the same sentence. Wow. Dr. Bryant is also currently a clinical professor at the Catherine and Howard Bible Executive in Residence at New York University Silver School of Social Work, where she has served for the past decade. During her time at NYU, she has served as director of the Doctor of Social Work Program and as the Associate Dean of Academic Affairs. She also launched the Adaptive Leadership in Human Services Institute, which is an institute that helps strengthen the leadership capacity of social work students and clinicians and professionals who are working at the front lines of very complex human challenges. I want to definitely talk to her about this adaptive leadership. It's so cool with this whole concept. And her career spans nearly 40 years across nonprofit leadership, government, higher education, youth development, and social justice. These decades of really important positions that she's held. When she was the executive director of Inwood House, we worked for her at Full Circle. I remember when she hired us. So Dr. Bryan was the executive director of Inwood House for nearly a decade as well. She did so many things to help uh pregnant teens there. And one of the things I remember is that she convened a citywide dialogue on teen pregnancy that brought together leaders from the healthcare, education, child welfare, and social services and philanthropy and even research industries to focus on what each sector could do together to help improve outcomes for young people. Such a visionary to have brought all those major entities together. She later also served as the Associate Commissioner for Youth Development at New York City's uh Administration for Children's Services, where she led development of adolescent services planning. And for three years, Dr. Bryant uh served as a mayoral appointee to New York City's panel for the education for education policy. So, as if that wasn't enough, Dr. Bryant is also the author and co-author of four books, I think uh 10 book chapters from my research, and numerous articles addressing leadership development in human services professions, anti-oppressive social work practice, advocacy for vulnerable young people, and the responsibility of professionals to move beyond simply just helping people survive within difficult systems to helping them change those systems that create the harm in the first place. So her work sits at a vital intersection: academic scholarship, public and nonprofit leadership, clinical and community practice, and an unswerving, unwavering, unflinching commitment to social justice. And I can tell you there's no better. I've met no better with that. A first-generation college graduate and a Prague, Puerto Rican, Afro-Latina, Dr. Bryant has consistently emphasized the importance of cultural identity, representation, and creating conditions in which people from historically marginalized communities can thrive, can lead, can see themselves, can feel connected, and can accept and see excellence as a norm. Her leadership has been recognized with NYU's Martin Luther King Jr. Faculty Award, NYU's Silver Distinguished Contribution to Student Engagement Award, the Latino Social Work Coalition's Lifetime Achievement Award, and most recently, the National Association of Social Workers New York State Chapters Lifetime Achievement Award. I know I forgot several things, but I just wanted you to know who we're sitting with today, sweet spotters, who we're blessed to have the privilege of sitting with. Dr. Bryant, it is truly an honor to welcome you to the Sweet Spot.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Thank you, Dr. Sweet. My mentor hero. I so profoundly respect everything that you do. And I want to thank you for the gift of that unbelievable introduction. Like that was a gift wrap with a big bow. Everyone should have the privilege of being introduced by you and being able to see themselves through your eyes. Thank you for all of that positivity you put out in the world and your ability to just um, I think, mirror the best in each of us.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Thank you, Doc. And I have to tell you, as you know, I am the self-elected chief of Dr. Linda Lisol Brian fan club. So and uh you know, the challenge I have here today is to be focused and really get some questions in. Because as you know, I can sit and talk with you all day. But to be fair to our listeners, I know they would want to know some of the pearls and the wisdom that you would have. So would it be okay if I just dived right into some questions? Dive in. Okay,

Origin Story And Early Inequity

SPEAKER_02 7:48

all right. Yes. So here are some of the questions. I want to talk about your origin story a little bit, because you see, you spent your career at the intersection of youth development, child welfare, public service, nonprofit leadership, and now higher education. So I wanted to ask you what experiences, personal or professional, first made you committed to this work?

SPEAKER_01 8:14

That's a great, great question because I don't think there's any one of us whose career trajectory doesn't contain the seeds of their early life experiences. And I'm no different. I think being literally a little Puerto Rican girl growing up in Brooklyn, an Afro-Latina, within a world that has a lot of feelings about people of African descent, I realize now that shaped me so much. You start receiving these messages from very early on about the fact that the world is going to be a hostile place to you and that there are things you need to do to be able to overcome, to be able to thrive in that world. And those messages may not come in the form of a lecture or an explanation. They just may come in the way your mom is trying to comb your hair and just get it right, and then look at you and say, Great, now you look presentable. Right? There are messages we take in from that, which is I gotta work really hard to be presentable. I may not be presentable just as I am. It's gonna take some work. And you you begin to internalize those messages and you realize you you you walk away with the impression, you know, I'm not quite as good as other people. But if I work really, really hard at it, you know, I can have a chance. Maybe someone corrects your grammar, your accent. You're just being constantly fixed and monitored for appropriateness, for suitability, for acceptability. And that's such a normative part, unfortunately, of growing up as a kid of color that it it influences the way we navigate the world. And I think it's very powerful, and I'm gonna try not to go off on too much of a tangent on this, but this could be its own topic, which is the ways in which we internalize not only what the world is like, but what our place is, can be, or is expected to be in the world. So I definitely got the message like you have to work really hard. You have to let people know that you're not what they think you are, what they expect of a Puerto Rican girl. And so you you learn how to do that. And there's a there's a tremendous sacrifice in that because one of the things you may sacrifice is your authentic self. That's a very high price to pay for acceptance into the world. And we tend to spend the rest of our life trying to integrate these two parts of ourselves. But because of that early experience, one of the things that I think I was really committed to was how do we get people to just respect the humanity and other people? Like, why do we have to do all this work and jump through these hoops to be acceptable? I think that's something that I felt was innately unfair and unjust. And I was also very well aware that we were poorer socioeconomically, but that that wasn't the reality for the entire world. And I felt that there was an inherent unfairness in that. And I wanted I wanted people like me to also have a chance. I saw how my relatives, myself, we were first assumed to be not so good until you proved otherwise. And I felt like what I want what I wanted to be able to do in the world was, I guess, for lack of a better word, level the playing field and like, you know, judge me more fairly than that. Don't make me have to climb out of a whole negative set of ideas about me. So I think that really shaped both my desire to go into the helping professions in whatever fashion that would be teaching, counseling, social work. It just was where I was drawn from very early on. And it had to do with experiencing a tremendous sense of inequity everywhere around me, that even as a little kid, you just knew like this isn't fair. It isn't really fair.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Wow. I'm sure everyone listening now fully understands why I uh had to give that introduction and why I said that this is going to be a challenging interview because everything you just said there, Doc, I have so many other questions around you growing up and sensing this that I have to contain myself. So I'm gonna just ask one little tiny one. Okay, a little girl growing up as a teenager, you're growing up, you're sensing this inequity, you're seeing the unfairness, you're processing it. Was it deflating? Was it inspiring, motivational, emotional? Well how did you metabolize that?

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Okay, two things. One, it was aggravating, like it made me angry. And I could sense the anger that also resided in my parents. And I could sense the, like my grandparents, I think, were just like, hey, it's just the way it is, right? There's no point in getting worked up about it. It's just the way it is. You find a way under, over, around, through, just find a way. This is what you have to do. So there's no point in dwelling on the unfairness of it. But my parents definitely had anger about it. And I also watched them, knowing that they had that anger, interface with people, whether it was landlords or others, where they had to stifle that anger and be gracious. And I felt angry

The Staircase And Proving Worth

SPEAKER_01 14:45

for them that they had to do that. So I'm going to give you one quick visual example. In the apartment we lived in, we were one flight up from the landlords. And the landlords were Italian immigrants, older Italian immigrants. My mother would have me every Saturday get a bucket and a brush and scrub the linoleum steps, linoleum-covered steps in the hallway leading up to our apartment. These are the public steps? Yes, these are the steps in the hallway. You come into the building, and if you're going up to our apartment, you have to go, or the apartment above, you have to go up those steps. So everybody used these steps. Everybody used these steps. That's right. They were not our personal steps.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Uh-huh. And I would have to clean these steps every Saturday like a little Cinderella. Oh my goodness. Because she wanted to make sure that we showed the landlords that we were clean people. Because one of the most disgusting stereotypes about Puerto Ricans was that we were dirty people. So my mother's pride was you could eat off my floors. We we not only keep our house clean, we will even clean the external steps because we're so clean. And the landlord would say, you don't have to do that. That's not, you know, it's not your responsibility. My mother would say, No, no, it's fine. We do it. So it was a again an overcompensation. Like before you can even think we're dirty, we have cleaned everything. Wow. That was my job. And I'm talking, I was six years old. That was my job on Saturdays to like do those steps. Wow. One by one with a with a brush, get all the way down after they were cleaned, then you come back up with the mop and glow to make them shine, and then I was done. So what it said is we have to prove our humanity, our value, our good human qualities. We have to prove that we're not what you think we are. And that that has shaped me so much. Because my fight is I am a human being. I should not have to prove that I am a human being, to be treated like a human being. Why do I have to jump through those hoops when other people get the benefit of the doubt? And the only difference between us is our ethnic background, the color of our skin, maybe the name we have. Why do we have to do that? There's something inherently wrong about that. Are we not all God's children? How can we how can we treat people like that?

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Yeah. This is stunning to just listen to this. I'm just completely riveted because it's just the image that you painted, I can almost see you on these steps.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

I can still see myself. I still see myself. And I hated it. And it wasn't the work, it was the what it meant. It's what it meant.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Yeah. Wow. Again, to our audience and our listeners, I'm gonna keep saying this. I'm challenged here not to ask additional questions, doc. And I feel almost guilty to even move on to another question. Uh, only because this is so rich and there's so much. Because the obvious question is so you took this experience I'm freestyling here. You it sounded like you took this, you translated it into fire and passion, and and and it fueled this commitment to the to the social work and to the change and the agent for change that you are. Is is that fair or am I romanticizing here?

SPEAKER_01 18:31

No, I think that's fair to say, but I would say that also happened over, you know, a process of time. Because first I had to learn how to comply with this.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Right? And you learn to suck up the anger, to swallow it, to comply. You learn how to perform all that appropriateness everywhere you are at school. So I'm a good student, I'm respectful, I raise my hand, I do well, I'm always working to excel and to exceed expectations.

unknown 19:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

I feel like that's a pressure so many people. Yes, particularly people of color, uh, women, men, different folks from different sectors. It's a pressure we all live with. It's a it's an unspoken pressure. You've articulated it so brilliantly and so well, but I it's clear to me that that's a pressure.

SPEAKER_04 19:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

And you always have to be the exception. You always have to be the exception. And I think there was a point in which I realized, and even early in my career, I was working to help other people be that exception. And then I realized like what we need to change is making it the norm, not an exception. And that's what I live for now, which is my work should help lift people in a way where that is the norm, and we don't have to be an exception. I'm working towards a norm of us all being able to thrive.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Got it, got it. Because I'm sitting here, Doc, and I gotta tell you, and I apologize to everyone because I'm not gonna move on to that second question just yet. Because I just have to say that what resonated for me as you were speaking was I was asking myself, am I on those steps in some way? Meaning, still doing steps, still trying to prove who I am, my worth, that I can do this and look at look at what I'm doing. I you in some ways, it's both uh an acquiescence to the forces that be, and also a bit of a protest in a way. Because I think your mom was trying to protest or to to in some way to address this with whatever power she has. And I feel as if some of us, and I I'll speak for myself, sometimes feel as if I'm still on those steps, just cleaning the steps. And I shouldn't be on those cleaning those steps. But then it feels like I should and I have to. And it's a very powerful imagery. The good news about what you did is that it it contributed to shaping the phenomenal human being if you've come into being today. But if I'm listening to you carefully, I guess you're saying you don't want to create more people who are cruising clean steps as a way to put things. Right, right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Because again, when you learn, when you're being taught that the goal is to be the exception, we never change the reality for everybody, right? We're just the ones who made it through. And I'm grateful, I'm deeply grateful that my parents were able to give me enough to make it through, right? That they weren't able to deposit enough that I could survive and thrive and still get somewhere. But I realized from a just This perspective, it's not enough. Me and you, and every exception, that's not enough to really change things. That's that still leaves a whole lot of people who don't make it through. And that and that is where our energy and our focus has to be. Right? But I think your your point about still being on the steps is I I want to just be candid that I got a lump in my throat when you said that, because I think on some level we're always on those damn stairs.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

We're always having because the burden of having to prove our worth, our value, our humanity, it's never over. But I think I feel more clear today that that's what I want to work to change. And I don't just want to create more people who are better at appeasing those who think we're not good enough.

From Individual Help To Systems Change

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Yeah, and and I think I found a bridge to the second question of that, which is the fact that you have gone to bigger staircases. Uh, you've led within both large public systems and you've led in community-based organizations. And just to tie that leadership that you've had on those big stages, what was an early experience that taught you the difference between helping an individual person? Because you talked about trying to create empowered leaders. What was the early experience that taught you the difference between helping an individual person and changing the conditions that keep people struggling? Are we going back to the steps here, or are there more? Were there other?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yes, yes. So I think as my career progressed, what I started realizing was everywhere I went to work, there were variations on the same challenges that people were struggling with. And that all of these organizations and systems were set up almost to like churn people through, like a mill. You just churn people, and it was a never-ending revolving door of need of you know, people coming back in the same situation or worse. And I realized that what we were doing was absolutely necessary, but it wasn't sufficient. It wasn't enough. Here's the question I ask Is social work or fill in any other helping profession, is social work or other helping professionals simply helping people who are hurting to get more comfortable in their oppressed state? So if you were to walk down the sidewalk and there were a group of people in a ditch, down in a hole, it would be important to send water down, maybe some protein bars, maybe a pillow, because it might probably hard down there.

SPEAKER_06 25:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Right? And so you will help, you will provide some immediate relief. But if you are not helping to get people out of a ditch, if they're just gonna stay in the ditch, then are we really helping? And so I realize like, I don't want to feel good about myself after I sent the water and the protein bars down. I want to help them get out of the ditch, even though the water and the protein bars are essential, necessary, but not enough. Not enough true healing is you're a human being, you don't belong in a ditch. What do we have to do so that you're not in a ditch? What do you have to do? What do we have to do? Because it's a mutual responsibility. But we can't just walk past and like those are ditch people. Right. Right? And so therefore, what we do is we just throw some water and some protein bars down and we're good. No, we can never be okay with that. And I realize that our helping systems, unfortunately, are really designed to just throw the water and the protein bars down to the ditch people.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Yeah. Yeah. You see, that's what I was going to ask you about the, you know, changing the conditions that keep people struggling.

Where Power Really Lives

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Yeah. And sort of what did that teach you about where the real power sits in the system?

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yeah. And the real power is a great question because I used to think, especially when I became an executive director, I was like, I am now the top person.

SPEAKER_03 26:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

I'm going to be able to make all this change. And what I learned is I was not the top person.

unknown 27:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

And I had simply traded in one individual boss for a board, which was multiple individual bosses. And that there's not enough power that any one individual can have to really change things, that the power really rests with us, especially the people who need the change. But unfortunately, they have not come to see themselves as having any power to change things. And so I think that's a big part of the work, which is let's let's get you in touch with the power you actually do have, because we can be defeated just because we don't think we have any. So a big part of the work is let's let's get you in touch with the power you do have, and let's have you connect with other people who are recognizing the power they have and look at the power of the collective rather than the individual. So I think about the world we're living in right now, where we may not be happy with the way things are going in the world, and we literally believe, like, well, you know, the people in power have the power. They're doing this, there's nothing we can do about it. It's like we literally hold the power to put people in office, take people out of office. Not to say there isn't risk, right? In exercising that power, because there is. But we have that power and we need to make the choice to exercise it, and we can't do it alone. Change and progress is never a solo sport, it's a team sport. And it's it's a lot more work to do collective work than it is to individually just be like, well, I'm just gonna write a check or I'm just gonna do this. It's more work, it's more time consuming, but it is infinitely more effective. And if we ever look at just through history, what are the big major changes that have happened in the world? Those came about as a result of real collective action. We didn't get voting rights because one person pursued it. Right? There were many individual people who played a prominent role, but it was a movement of people that made it come to reality.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

And we live in a culture in this country where we worship the individual hero, but the real progress doesn't come through an individual hero. And we shouldn't be looking for one. The closest we should come to looking for an individual hero is looking in the mirror and then looking at your neighbor, right? Figuratively speaking. Like who who who else? Who are my comrades here? Who are my allies? Who can I join forces with to make change? Because if I'm serious about change, I can't do it by myself. So I think real power sits with us. Yeah. And that's a whole mind shift that I'm still grappling with because we're all busy and we don't feel like we have time to work with other people and to plan with other people. And you know what? That may be by design. Maybe we're all being kept, you know, scurrying around like busy mice so that we don't have time. Yeah. But that is where I believe real power rests and in our own idea that we don't have any. When we don't think we have any, we're toast already. So we need to begin to take inventory of the power we have.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

Yeah, that just listening to you. I so get it. And I feel inspired, Doc, listening to you about sort of a call to action. And I feel that ultimately that we have to look in the mirror and look at our neighbor.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

And that's just so important. And I even made an association to biblical roots as you were speaking, love thy neighbors, you love yourself. You know, that involves looking in the mirror. Yes, yes. You know.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

That that is so true. It never occurred to me in terms of biblical truth that it is rarely just like it's all about you. In fact, it's almost like a stop navel gazing. It's not all about you, right?

SPEAKER_06 31:31

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

There's work to be done.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yes, yes, yes. And your book is called Social Work, a call to action, right?

Charity Is Not The Cure

SPEAKER_02 31:41

What was the call you felt this profession, or perhaps even the country, could no longer afford to ignore that made you write this book?

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Yeah, I mean, I really felt like this is a profession that's been, you know, existing for, you know, over a hundred years, and yet the thing we can no longer ignore is that charity is not an answer to systemic inequity.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Okay, I have to say that again. So say it again.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Charity is not the answer to systemic inequity. Got it. Any more than a band-aid is the answer to cancer or a gaping wound. Got it. Right? You may need a band-aid if you have a cut and you are bleeding.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

It's not that band-aids don't have a place.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

But we cannot conflate the band-aid with a cure. Not because it won't cure certain things. A little scratch, a little cut, yes, it's not going to cure certain things. And so we need to address the real roots. And there's no quick fix, and there's no single hero that's going to get us there. It's going to take collective work, persistent action. It's it literally takes a whole team. I like baseball as that's my sport. So I think about like in baseball, when the pitcher is pitching and starts to get tired, you bring in a relief pitcher. The game doesn't end because that person can't keep pitching.

SPEAKER_06 33:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

You bring in, you bring in a relief pitcher, and that's how teams work. Or you bring in a pinch runner or a pinch hitter. That's how teams work. It's not up to just one person. It's a team effort. And we want to look at who's got the most advantage, privilege, positioning to help take this work further, and who needs to be protected because they don't have as much of that privilege at the moment. Right? And those people who are better positioned and have more privilege should be protecting those who have less of it, but we're all in it. You do the work with, not for. Because even that little difference demonstrates a level of respect that this is everybody's work, right? So we're trying to bring about change. We're not trying to like rescue individual disadvantaged people. We're trying to change the conditions that keep people disadvantaged.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

And I really like that because in the book, one thing I was struck by is that the fact that your book challenges us to not only care for people harmed by broken systems, but to change those systems. Why is that distinction so important, especially thinking about clinicians and helping professionals who may already be a bit, as you said before, busy and overwhelmed by immediate needs. Why is that distinction so important?

SPEAKER_01 34:42

As I answer that, I want to say both are necessary, right? We need to care for those pressing needs at the moment. You can't say like you're hungry, but I can't give you a sandwich because I'm busy, you know, leading the movement.

SPEAKER_06 34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

We need a sandwich and we need a movement.

SPEAKER_06 35:01

Right, right, right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

So they're both important, but one is about survival and one is about changing the conditions that don't allow people to thrive. To me, we have allowed human services to be framed as crisis services. And again, sometimes there's a crisis, that's exactly what you need. Or survival services. Right? We we took you up the street for tonight. Tomorrow, I don't know, but for tonight, because there was a storm, you're off the street. Okay, great, and not enough. People need shelter. And the things that we collectively as a society accept for disadvantaged people, we would never accept for our own families. We would never be like, yes, you can sleep on the street, and here's and here's a blanket. Again, I'm not saying that that blanket for someone who's on the street doesn't make a difference. It does. But let's not lose sight. That we would not want that to be our mother, brother, father, sister, cousin, child sleeping on that street. And if it's not okay for them, it's not okay for any other human being either. And so we fight so people don't have to live and sleep on the streets. And I know all of this begs the question about self-determination, right? Don't some people, you know, they do this to themselves or what? Okay, if you you can, I'm sure that you can show me a handful of exceptions where someone is just stubbornly like, I'm staying here on the street. But something has happened for that person to get to a place where they're like, I'm better off here.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

No human being comes up and goes, you know what my goal is in life? I can't wait to sleep on a subway grate. Yeah. I just can't wait to have the rats running around me. No, no, no. Somewhere along the line, there's been hurt and pain and messages and difficult circumstances that has that person thinking this is commensurate to them. But we all have the power to be a mirror to another human being and say that image you've been seeing is distorted. You are a human being and we care. And if you're not ready today, I'll be back tomorrow. And if you're not ready tomorrow, I'll be back the day after. Because you do deserve better. Not because you're perfect, not because you haven't made a mistake. You deserve better because you're a human being, and that's enough. It's enough.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Guess that's the day-to-day real organization, ordinary work that has to happen.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Yes. To think systemically. Right? Don't forget the individual. It is the smallest unit of care and intervention and probably the most important. And we tend to that as we also do the work to dismantle systems that make it possible for that inequity to happen and to create in their place systems that don't do that, that actually help people to thrive.

Adaptive Leadership For Wicked Problems

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Wow. Okay, so let me ask you a question on that, because you're a leading voice on adaptive leadership, right? And uh and sometimes a leader might run into a problem that they can't solve with a new policy, that they can't put in a new program. There isn't a better technical fix. With your your extensive understanding and experience of adaptive leadership, how would you advise them? Uh, what should they do differently? How does one approach that?

SPEAKER_01 38:51

So, one of the key distinctions in adaptive leadership is that there are different kinds of challenges, and there are some problems that no matter how complex they are, somewhere in the universe there is an answer to that problem. Right? So take something really like highly complex, like running a mainframe computer. Even though that's very complicated, there is knowledge. There's a knowledge base that exists in the world that you can apply to address challenges related to running that computer. But then there are challenges like racism and inequity and homelessness, that there is no one fix for it. There's no like one answer. We just have to keep working at it and making progress and trusting that progress will beget more progress. We call those adaptive challenges. And what we're talking about now, in terms of inequity, is an incredibly, it's a wicked problem. It's an adaptive challenge. So we can't look for the one answer or the one solution because there's no such thing. We need to be trying, throwing all kinds of spaghetti at the wall and seeing what might work or help. One of the things I think we always have to do is talk to the people who are directly impacted by that challenge. Because nobody knows what it's like to be homeless more than someone who's homeless.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

So we need to learn from people who we're not in the habit of listening to. So the first thing we want to do is turn our attention to whose perspective are we not hearing when it comes to this problem? Who are we not listening to that we should be listening to? That's the first thing. The second thing is engage collective intelligence and wisdom. Don't look for the one expert. Oh, so-and-so is the homelessness expert of the United States. That's great. And by all means, get their perspective. But they're not the only ones. Someone who's been homeless for 15 years is probably more of an expert. Right? So we want to engage the collective intelligence and the collective wisdom. And we want to keep an experimental mindset. I know there's pressure, everyone's like, just fix it. But we do have to push back in that we want to fix it. We want to make it better. But there is no quick fix to there's no like instantaneous fix. So here's what we need to do. We're gonna try a bunch of things. We're gonna experiment with a bunch of ideas. We're gonna generate ideas, collective intelligence. We're gonna experiment with some of those and see what works, what has, what gets traction, what doesn't. We're gonna keep trying. And if that doesn't work, let's go back and learn from why it didn't work and try something different or tweak it. That's the way we deal with challenges that are so not just complex, but they're really challenges that have to do with values and perspectives. And people don't let go of those things easily. Right? So we do have perspectives in our country that say, you know, if you're out there homeless, that's probably your fault. Okay, that's a perspective, right? If you believe that someone's in that situation because they did it to themselves, and you don't look at what in our overall systems helps to sustain that, you're not going to be inclined to do that much because you think there's something voluntary here. So changing those perspectives is complicated. And that's why we can't do it alone. Because we need to rub shoulders with other ways of thinking about these challenges and be open.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

And yes, the change, the the idea of the collective and the experiment, and having keeping a collective focus and an experiment, an experimental focus and understanding that it's complicated, that the argument is not that it's just simple, it's complicated.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

And change is hard.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

It is, it really is, especially changing things that are grounded in values and perspectives and that have been held for so long. That's why racism is so hard to, you know, like this is not easy to change. Yeah. And we can never stop working at it.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

No, we can't. And meaningful change can create discomfort, resistance, and sometimes isolation.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Absolutely. Because you know what? With every inequitable situation, someone is not doing well, and someone else is benefiting from that. And nobody wants to think, oh, that's me. I'm benefiting from it. But somebody's benefiting. From that. And so to change that may mean that there's going to be a loss of some of those benefits. Right. If we if we were to actually heal racism, people who today are currently deemed superior and advantaged might feel like, well, I don't, but I don't want to lose that. Yeah. I mean, I'd like you to be okay, but I don't want to lose my edge. And if we're all equal, then I'm not special. There's always a loss associated with change. And the thing about adaptive leadership is it says, let's not deny that. Let's acknowledge it and let's work with those feelings of loss so that defending against that doesn't hold back our progress on what we're trying to do.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

And just to make this real, Doc, for those of us listening out there, this is hard work. This is hard. Roll your things up, confrontational, rejecting, disappointing, because you're running up against systems, you're running up against what is what is this work required of you? Somebody who's been in the trench. What is this work required of you personally?

Staying Grounded Without Becoming Jaded

SPEAKER_02 45:14

And how have you stayed grounded without becoming jaded or hardened by this process?

SPEAKER_01 45:23

I love that question. I think this work requires us and has required me to stay grounded in purpose. Now, again, we get rewarded in our work for outcomes, right? So we can be very outcome-focused. And I'm not saying outcomes are not important, but we have to be grounded in something bigger. There has to be a purpose that drives us. And I've and I feel like without that, I don't think I would be able to withstand sometimes the maddeningly slow pace of this work. Where you're just like, oh my gosh, like I'm putting so much in. Is it ever gonna change? So staying grounded in purpose, I think is is really a non-negotiable to stay engaged in this work. And it does mean for me anyway, it has meant give up my own need to be a hero. Yeah. Right? Because who cares? What is more important? Like I will, I want to have an impact. And I don't care if it never gets credited to me. It doesn't matter. If we were able to bring some progress to human suffering, if we're able to bring down the level of virulent racism that holds people back and hurts people so much, that's the kind of progress that I want to be a part of. There'll never be enough awards or anything that would ever substitute for that. So I think relinquishing, there's almost like a relinquishing of a level of ego. Yeah, I was just thinking that. But the trade-off is for a much deeper purpose. And I think ultimately as humans, we are very purpose-driven.

SPEAKER_03 47:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

You know, it can get misguided along the way, but we are. We we do respond to purpose. And that's the team I want to play on, right? That's the team in my lifetime that I want to be on that team. That's what I'm playing for.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

It's a great reminder for anyone listening, for all of us, to really just occasionally maybe check in on are we moving and operating in our purpose? Because there's a certain grounding that you're talking about that comes from that and level of just keeping oneself buoyant and pointed in the right direction in the middle of really hard work. Yeah. That makes so much sense.

Institutional Courage And Calculated Risk

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Let me ask you, many organizations talk about equity, right? And they talk about inclusion and but the reality of practices, the reality of budgets, the decision making. Sometimes you we when we can hear the language, and nothing is shifting, nothing is changing. And uh increasingly, given the culture in which we're living and the times we live in, these terms aren't even terms you can even say out loud as much anymore. They're not popular anymore. And and so you it takes a lot of guts. It's almost like a constant risk now in some cases. Yes. It is a risk.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

And there is no leadership without risk, like there's no safe leadership. If you really want to make a difference, it is not for the faint of heart, and it is not safe. And so you're right that it is calculate, like you have to do that risk assessment. And you want to be careful and strategic, but you are willing to take that risk. And the only way we take risks like that is when we're grounded in purpose.

SPEAKER_03 49:04

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Right? That's why without without really being grounded in purpose, we're not going to take those risks. We're gonna play it safe. So we really want to be grounded in our purpose. And, you know, in terms of what's happening now where people are like, they're afraid. They're afraid of the consequences if they if they embrace these ideas. But again, I would challenge all of us to go, are we really that powerless? Like, we really can't push back and say, I stand by these beliefs. I stand by this work. I'm not gonna give up this work. And we're going to wage a fierce battle, you know, if you try to take us out because of that.

SPEAKER_02 49:45

So, what does institutional courage actually look like when you're serious about racial and social justice? Like, how does that look to you? What would you call institutional courage?

SPEAKER_01 49:55

So, so I think institutional courage is one, really doing that risk assessment very thoroughly and carefully. And it's not so that you can say, well, I've done the pros and cons, and the cons are really bad, so we're not going to do it. You do the risk assessment so that you go into this work with your eyes wide open. Oh, I see. As to what can happen. And maybe you have the benefit then of also preparing to protect or defend yourself against the intensity of the damage from those risks. But it isn't, it isn't a calculus that says, let me do the risk assessment and then I'll decide if we're going to do it. You your purpose demands that you do it. You do the risk assessment so that you are as informed and equipped as possible to not get taken out, to survive, to keep to continue doing the work. I think that's one of the things that it looks like. I think the other thing is doing a calculus of what's the privilege, power, and authority that as an organization you have. Maybe you've been around for 150 years, but maybe you have a great name and reputation. Maybe you've got a big endowment. What do you have that can help support you in this work, in this battle? Right? Don't assume you're like a small, you know, easily, easy to push over when actually you may be quite big and powerful. Wow. So do an honest inventory of what you've got going for you. And you can be very powerful even if you're not very big or rich. There may be other forms of authority that you have. Well, you've got a gazillion followers. Well, that's a form of authority. You can harness that. Right? Maybe you've got a big platform, everyone reads your Substack. Hey, that's that's a piece of authority. So you do an honest inventory of what authority you have, what privilege, what positioning you have, and you don't hesitate to use that. That's another thing I would look for in an organization that is trying to lead courageously on these things. And who are your allies? Who can you bring into that tent to do that work? Think of the collective. What is the collective that you are able to mobilize? And then you mobilize them.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

Yeah, there's such clarity with that. And I feel as if that's the part that we don't always consciously think about, doc, but you gave me a roadmap now to think about where and how I could begin to make a difference.

Why Leaders Get Stuck

SPEAKER_02 52:46

There's a lot of well-intentioned leaders out there. Where do you see them most often getting stuck in this kind of work? What's a sticking point, do you think, or please get styled?

SPEAKER_01 52:57

So adaptive leadership makes that distinction between leadership and authority. And authority is like the power that you have based on your position, right? So if you're the CEO, you've got power and authority. But leadership is not necessarily connected to having authority. Leadership is when you engage in work to bring about needed change. So you can you can actually be somebody who's got a lot of authority. You're the CEO, you're the big cheese, but you don't engage in change work because you're busy trying to preserve what you have. And so that's where I see people mostly getting stuck, which is I don't want to risk the authority and power that I now have. I don't want to put that at risk. Even though I want change to happen, I want it to happen and I want to stay in my safe spot. There's no leadership without that risk. Because the minute you try to shake something up that people are invested in or used to or familiar with, you're gonna piss some people off. And there's gonna be risk just because of that, because you poked a bear. And so I I see people get stuck when they're trying to both they want change and they're trying to protect their perch at the same time. And that makes sense. I'm not, I mean, it's completely human to try to protect your perch. That makes sense. But if you're grounded in purpose and that purpose is to bring about this change, then you know that you are taking on some risk. And you can be strategic and careful, but you can't avoid risk. And that's why the collective is so important, because you don't want to be out there on your own. It's much easier to pick one person off than it is to pick a whole group off. Right. And that's why we work collectively. The work of change is collective work. We don't want you to be a martyr and go get yourself taken out. We want you to live to fight another day and another day and another day. So be strategic, be smart, but know with your eyes wide open that you are engaging in risk, and you try to mitigate that risk by working collectively, by staying grounded in your purpose and pacing the work.

unknown 55:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:27

Right? Everything doesn't require us to walk in and just like knock over all the tables. Change doesn't have to happen like that. It can happen slowly, methodically, but you want to be working towards that.

SPEAKER_02 55:43

That just makes so much sense to me, Doc. Sitting with you just has this quality of just like, oh my God, I have so many more questions. I have so many more questions. I have so many more questions.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

But we'll keep the conversation going maybe another time then.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

Yeah, we have no, we'll have to come back

Advice For Young Change Makers

SPEAKER_02 55:59

to this, you know. But I want to uh do something for young, the younger social worker, the younger mental health professional, the younger educator or physician or community leader who wants to make a difference out there, is listening to you, watching all of your accomplishments, and saying, Well, I can never be a Linda Bryant. I can't be a professor, an executive director, a leader. But they want to make a difference. And they feel small inside and uh inside of a large system. Yeah. Where should they begin?

SPEAKER_01 56:31

I love this. First thing I want to say to every younger person is that history documents that every major movement was sparked by young people. Civil rights movement. I mean, let's just think about it. The the the women's movement, young people have been crucial, pivotal, instrumental to every huge movement. And that's not an accident. Because when you're younger, you have a lot less tolerance for nonsense and BS. You are focused on this is not right and it needs to change. You may not yet be saddled with a mortgage, a family. So you have less to lose in a sense, you may have more time and energy to put into this work. And that's why I think it's not an accident that so many movements throughout the history of the world have been sparked by and and sustained by younger people. So I want I would love them to just kind of like look up a movement and see the role that young people played in that. And I would also say, yes, it is encouraging. And I and now that I am older myself, I realize how important young people really are. Because when we have more to lose, it's easier to make those trade-offs and compromises. You know, I got a mortgage, I got, I gotta put the kids through college, I can't, I can't ruffle too many feathers. But when you're young, you're like, these feathers need to be ruffled. And wait, and I'm I'm gonna do some ruffling here. Yeah, and and I love that, and I thank young people for their service. They they are making a difference, they will make a difference. I think what we have to do is also remind them of the power they hold. There may be power they don't have, but there's a lot of power they do have, and I want them to see that. Their time, their energy, their absolute intolerance for hypocrisy, those those are very powerful, powerful qualities that they have to bring to the work. And I would say to every one of them for anyone who's like, well, I can't be a Linda Bryant, Linda Bryant didn't think she could be a Linda Bryant either. Truly. And sometimes when Linda Bryant hears Dr. Derek Sweet read her bio, she's like, I don't know who that woman is. That can't possibly be the little Puerto Rican girl from Brooklyn. But we're all much more powerful than we think, yeah, than we know. And please stick with people who will reflect that to you. Find good mirrors in human beings out there who will reflect back to you who you really are. And you talk to yourself in that mirror and remind yourself who you are.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

That's just so powerful, Dr. Bryan. That is just so powerful, so rich. And I I I want to end with this.

Defining Legacy As Human Impact

SPEAKER_02 59:53

We are at the hour, but I want to ask you about your legacy. When you think about your legacy, what you want to leave, not just about the amazing positions that you've held or the outstanding achievements you've earned. We we I we get all that. But I want to ask you, what do you personally hope has become more possible because of your work, your body of work?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

I hope that what would be remembered is how I've touched others. Whether it's been even nonverbally, sometimes it's just you have someone on the street, you give them a nod of acknowledgement that just says, I see you. Or it could be someone who I just spoke life into their lives, just said, you know, you are amazing. You can do anything, you can call me anytime if you need some support. I hope that that's the thing that I leave. Like, how did I touch other people's lives in a way that made them feel seen and valuable? Because, you know, accolades come and go and they're just they're trophies, but they don't really define us. And our impact is so much bigger than our achievements. So I want to focus on impact. Like, what am I actually doing and changing and contributing to rather than how many acknowledgments did I get? And there's a lot of people who have a lot of impact who never get the awards, and you know, and I want them to know that their work matters and it makes a difference.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:44

Wow. I I just I I'm saying wow because I don't have words to to to to follow what you're saying, and I'm so grateful that you exist. I know I've personally, Dr. Bryant, been a beneficiary as a colleague and a friend of your enormous wisdom, your your compassion and your intellect. I think it's just second to none. I want to thank you, Dr. Alinda Sell Bryant. I really do. I'm calling you by all your names, Dr. Selbry. Because thank you for joining us here on the sweet spot and for sharing the experiences that you've had, the values, the convictions that have shaped your remarkable journey. I from cleaning the staircase to being at the top of the staircase now, right? I just really got that. You know, I felt like today's conversation reminded all of us that meaningful leadership is not only about managing what exists, it's about having the courage to question what is no longer working, to center the voices of those too often pushed to the margins, and to help create systems that allow people and communities to thrive, to truly thrive. You challenged us today, doc. Whether we're a clinician, a doctor, an educator, a coach, an organizational leader, an advocate, whatever we are, or simply we're just somebody who's just listening and we just care about other people. You challenge us to move beyond good intentions. And you asked us to like pair up our compassion with action and with service and advocacy and with accountability, like this whole idea of looking in the mirror and taking a collective, risk-filled approach. And your career is a powerful example of what becomes possible when a professional with expertise is grounded in cultural identity, is grounded in community, is grounded in social justice, and is committed to developing the potential of other people. I just want to thank you on behalf of this state and this country for your leadership. Um, what you've been doing, uh, the people you've mentored, the lasting impact of your work. It has been just a privilege. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:07

It's my privilege, and thank you for everything you've poured into me over all the years.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:12

Oh, well, listen, I uh look forward to many more years with you. I look forward to collaborating and learning and growing. And would you be willing to come back? Um, because we had a whole other thing. I didn't really spend as much time on your book as I really wanted to and other things. It was just such a rich discussion. Would you be willing to come back for part two? I would be honored. I really would.

Closing And Part Two Tease

SPEAKER_02 1:04:35

Well, there you have it, sweet spot. She said yes. So we're gonna definitely take advantage of that. Thanks again, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

Thank you, Doc. Have a brief day.