Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Welcome back to the sweet spot with Dr. Derek Sweet, a board certified psychiatrist specializing in supports and performance. In the sweet spot, we explore what it takes to stay steady and perform when the pressure is on and the moment matters. So stay tuned for making moves Monday.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Greetings and welcome and welcome back to the Sweet Spot, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us back here at the Sweet Spot. We're always delighted to have our guests join us. And this particular guest is someone that I'm extremely excited to share with you. I've held a secret from you all, sweet spotters. I've kept this man to myself for years and years and years. But now the time is right to share him with you and to introduce him. And before we begin, I want to just let you know that I don't ordinarily spend this much time on introducing folks and let them talk about themselves. But when you have someone of this status, you do have to pay respect and honor where honor is due. Roger Hines is a true veteran of NBA sports medicine. I don't think anyone would argue with that statement. He has a career that spans at least, in my view, three decades of NBA just knowledge and experience. He is currently, I believe, in his 21st season with the Knicks, the New York Knicks, the world champion New York Knicks, I should add, after spending 17 years as its head athletic trainer, now serving as an emeritus sports medicine administrator with the team. I would let that sink in. I know, I mean, that's a lot. That's a lot to unpack. You see, when you meet someone like this, you understand that they're more than just a title. Roger's career is one of those rare careers that quietly, very quietly, tells the story of modern basketball medicine. And he he wasn't just with the Knicks. This is the part that really is amazing to me. In reading his history, in reading his trajectory, I I had to take a step back and understand that this man was also the head athletic trainer for the Dallas Mavericks from 1996 to 2004. And before that, I worked with the Atlanta Hawks as an assistant athletic trainer and strength and conditioning coach. What level of experience do you have to have that you are like the top dog in every place that you know? This is this man is incredible to me. And I'm not done yet, sweet squatters. I I actually I'm sorry to do this to you, but I gotta do this. He did so much about this dude. He also served as the host athletic trainer for the East Squad in the 2015 NBA All-Star Game at Madison Square Garden. Unless you think he is only NBA action, Roger was also the strength and conditioning coach for the gold medal-winning U.S. Olympic team at the 1996 Atlanta Games. Another amazing moment. And from 2001 to 2004, Roger was the president of the National Basketball Athletic Trainers Association, that foundation. His training, impeccable. Certified athletic trainer, performance enhancement specialist, corrective exercise specialist, you name it. He's done it. He's also the contributing author to two books, Total Fitness, the NBA Way, and I think the other one was Condition the NBA Way as well. Two books that help bring the NBA level training concepts closer to a broader audience. Before Roger got into the NBA, and I'm going to talk to him about this hopefully, he spent 12 years or so at College of Charleston heading as a head athletic trainer, of course. Everywhere he goes, he's the head. The head athletic trainer and the director of sports medicine there, and also taught and worked with strength and conditioning there. It just doesn't end, sweet spotters. This is an amazing career. And we're very blessed and lucky today to have him here to talk to us. Shout out to Brooklyn College because he spent Roger did it his undergrad there, and uh I think he got a master's from Indiana State Masters of Science. So, yeah, there's just a lot. There's a lot, there's a lot. This is a long introduction. Uh what I love about his story is that it's not just about his teams, it's not just about his titles, it's not just about the championships. It's the story of a man who has spent his life helping athletes stay whole, recover, perform, and endure. I saw it myself. I saw it myself. I saw him in action for years. And you know the cool part? Many of you who are listening from the Caribbean are gonna enjoy this. Guess where he was born? Port of Spain, Trinidad. Yes, sir, he's a trimmie. And I share that lineage. I was born there. That's about all we have in common. I could say I was born close to Roger. Grew up in Brooklyn, was an avid Knicks fan, from what I understand. Growing up in New York City, loved the Knicks, and eventually, as life would have it, became one of the few people in this world trusted to lead that uh franchise in the sports medicine and training world. I it's an amazing story. Um so, on a personal note, Roger and I, we've worked together over 15 years. I've always known him to be thoughtful, he's steady, he's funny, he's very strict as well. Nobody messes with him. We all know that. And maybe Roger, I hope I'm not going too far to say that we're probably all still a little scared of you. Um and uh and yeah, and the wisdom, man, the wisdom that he brings. So today, ladies and gentlemen, today, sweet spotters, sweet bills, and sweet dreamers, it's a real honor. With that very lengthy uh welcome, I had to do it to honor my friend, my colleague, one of the most respected figures in NBA athletic training and sports medicine. V Roger Hines is here with us. Roger, how did I do uh with that introduction,

Retirement Fears And First Meeting

SPEAKER_02 7:40

brother?

SPEAKER_01 7:41

That was absolutely amazing, Doc. I'm sitting here just amazed. That was just thank you so much. I'm honored to have this chance to talk with you. I do have to make one correction.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

There's some people that are people that are scared of me. Okay, you can my wife and daughters, they are not scared of me. So just to make that get that straight. That's cool. So they'll be listening to this thing when I when it comes out, and they'll be like, what are you talking about? I'm scared. I'm scared of them.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

But again, you have lovely wife and daughters too. You know, I I probably uh should have mentioned that. You know, Roger has some beautiful kids, Jade and Aja, Andre and Greg, right? Is that am I right? Yeah, as well as four grandkids. Uh is it right? Yeah, yeah. See, I do my homework. We do our homework, and they're all accomplished, uh wonderful, uh, amazing. We're gonna have to do this in at least two or three sessions, Raj. Today we're just gonna get this introduction to you done and then we're gonna invite you back. Would that be cool? That'd be great, man. Awesome, awesome, awesome. So, Raj, you are in retirement mode, right? We're getting ready to retire. Is this right?

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Well, I mean, pro retirement, yes, from the maybe the NBA. Okay. Not so much fully retired where I'm gonna be just vegetating someplace. You know, you you and I already had a little chat about how to prepare myself mentally for that because it's I was kind of freaking out a little bit, and I'm thinking, what am I gonna do next? And you've given me some amazing advice as you've done over the years, where you have saved me from myself. Dealing with the stress of this business for all these years, you you were like a blessing, you know. And I recall the time that we were first met, and I remember when my boss, I don't know, I might mention her name too, Dr. Lisa Callahan, when she said, Hey, I want you to go have dinner with this couple. I said, Who? She said, Well, you might have something in common. He's a he's a trinity like yourself. And I said, Oh yeah. And she said, I'm thinking about bringing him in. This is the woman who had just amazing, she could see what was coming, right? Before the ND thought about mental performance and mental health. Absolutely. She wanted to be the first on board, and she wanted to bring you in to help us with that. So, you know, my wife will tell you when I go out to dinner with anybody, and she's with, especially if she's with me or I'm by myself, I don't say a whole lot. I'm just sitting there kind of listening to these people talk, and I don't talk much about myself. And I'm sitting there having dinner with you and Darcell, and I had to halfway through, I had to pump the brakes, and I was like, wait a second. I'm doing all the talking here. What is going on? Because you and you particularly had such a way of asking the questions and making someone feel comfortable that I was just, it was just me. I'm supposed to be checking you guys out, and you turned the tables on me. I had I didn't even get to halfway through the dinner that this man is really good. I said, Doc, I went back to her. I said, I'm sold. Let's get him. And and here we are, you know, 15 some odd years later.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Yeah, I remember that moment, man. I was listening I was just blown away. I couldn't believe that two amazing human beings from the New York Knicks were even speaking to me at that point. So I I think part of the quiet was just trying not to make any mistakes as I was speaking. It came off as quite psychological and psychiatric, but in real talk, I might have been a little scared.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

There you go with that again. You were not scared. You were pulling, you were pushing all the right buttons on me to get me to talk when I was supposed to be doing that to you. I'm like, okay, these two trinities are banging going at each other right now. Hey, and so I was sold from day one.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Hey man, 15 years later, it's been a wonderful ride, it's been amazing, it's just really been extraordinary. And I don't think we're gonna capture everything that we can share today, but I figured uh that I would just ask you some questions just to get us into it and hear what the wisdom of all of that background that you have would give us. And I and I and I felt like a great place to start, Raj, would have been just thinking back about this illustrious

Brooklyn Roots And Career Pivot

SPEAKER_02 12:10

career that you have. It's really, when you look back at it, it's topography is amazing. You have had head positions through the in college and in the NBA, and you've led organizations within the NBA, you've written books, you've taught courses, um, you've seen it all, right? And it's easy to just want to hear those experiences. But I was wondering, like, take me back to like way back, like young Roger Hines, did he, did you see all this in the crystal ball? Did you know that you were going to be like so um uh deeply involved in the NBA and all these head positions? Like, what led you into this? How did you even know to go this path?

SPEAKER_01 12:58

So, doc, you know, uh you have already mentioned some of it, but our family, and you know my family background, you know my father's background. That you know, we were very, very sports-oriented back background. My father, as you know, is a you know, is a Trinity legend in in football. We say football, okay, for you folks who don't talking about tackling people and with helmets and shoulder pads, we're talking about soccer.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Uh legend. He's a hall of famer with in the Trinidad, you know, scope of things, and also at the Harvard University. He he attended an HBCU. His sip, you know, all my siblings, you know, we the six of us, we all were trying to somehow meet this man at some point. Like, how we were we ever gonna get to that level, right? And it's not from trying. We never could get to that level, not from trying, not from not trying. I grew up in Brooklyn. Um, you know, most of the kids in the neighborhood were playing football and basketball and baseball. My father was pushing me to the soccer and the field hockey. You know, I played with the you know, German American League. I played as a kid, I played in the Italian American League as a kid, couldn't speak any language with these kids. I had nothing in common with these kids. When I go back to my neighborhood, I want to be hanging out with those kids. I want to play those games. So that kind of, you know, like my father kind of got thrown off a little bit by that, but it was like, I I don't I didn't grow up with Italians and Germans. I am a trinity and I'm living in a trinity community, uh West Indian community here in Crown Heights. So in high school, I started to the football, right? I started the I tried basketball, right? I went to the baseball, track and field, and it really just it was no bueno. It wasn't happening for me to be to go on beyond uh high school to maybe pursue it in college. And I'll tell you a funny story about that. So my senior year at Brooklyn Territory High School, there in Brooklyn, we had our banquet, football banquet. And our guest of honor to speak at our banquet was Joe Paterno. And Joe Paterno went to my high school there in Brooklyn. And, you know, he's a legendary, you know, now he's rest in peace, he's gone from us now. But I I got a chance to go up and meet him after he had done making the speeches and he gave her all the letters and the sweaters. And I went up to him and I said, Mr. Paterno, I would love to send you some film or some footage of whatever we had in those days to see if I could get a chance to play football at the next level. This man looked at me and said, he looked at me and he said, Son, can you kick? I played safety and and uh safety and cornerback in high school. So at that point I knew, okay, for college football ain't happening for me. This man thinks I'm a kicker. He ain't looking at me to play no real serious college football. So I had to decide, what am I gonna do? Uh Brooklyn College came next. Um I was in the midst of still trying to pursue the athletic side, you know, so I'm trying out for the the no, my father, let me step back. My father was pushing me towards medicine. He had his idea of what he wanted each one of his kids to do. I was the oldest. He wanted me to be a doctor. Two years. Really? I didn't know that. Your dad wanted to be a doctor. And of course, you know, the baby girl of all of them, the baby girl of all the kids is now going to be a, you know, Jade is going to be a doctor.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Yeah, your daughter, right. Jade. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

But after two, two years, two set two full years, almost two full years of failing grades, doctor. Failing grades, because my heart wasn't in this. I'm like, this is not, I don't, you know, this would be great, but this is not what I want to do. I didn't really know what I wanted to do, but this was not it. Yeah. So I'm so I switched my, I said, you know, maybe I can try physical education, maybe I could teach phys or coach or something like that. I was trying out for the JV basketball team at Brooklyn College. And during the tryouts, my knees started getting sore. I'm like, why is sore in my knee? I never had a knee injury before. Not any real knee injuries before. So the coach said, go downstairs, go downstairs to Roosevelt Hall, go downstairs to the training room. I said, What? What's that? He said, just go down there and go see Doc Chisholm. I said, okay. Went into that room and there's people all over the place. So it wasn't a big facility like it is now, it's a much more upgraded facility now. But back then it was this little small room in this old building, and there's this black man sitting at a desk, and there's students all over the place. I see athletes on tables getting worked on, and and I kind of was a little bit awkward. I'm like, why am I supposed to do this? And one of the one of the guys saw me, walks over to me, said, What you need? I said, uh, I was upstairs with the JV basketball trials that hurt my knee, they sent me dining. So go go over there and talk to that man over there. I said, Yes, sir. Sat down and I met Dr. Bill Chisholm, who became my first mentor. And I came back in there, I came back in there daily a couple of weeks for treatments, and my knee's getting better and it's getting stronger. I didn't make the team, by the way. But you didn't make a team. I didn't make it, no, I didn't make the team. That was the end of my athletic career right there. I did make the team, but I started to take an interest in these like, what are these people doing that's making my knee feel so good? And then I met one of my peer mentors, Dr. Frank Walters. He's now called Dr. Frank Walters. He was a year ahead of me in school. And he started kind of, he kind of took, he said, hey, so what you think about doing? And he'd always talk like that, what are you thinking about doing? And I said, I don't know, man. I'm I'm taking this secondary education minor. I know once I went to that school to start doing student teaching, and I listened, I looked at these kids and how they behave in school. I said, with my temperament, I'm gonna buy them, I'm gonna wind up slapping one of these kids, I'm gonna get sued and I'm gonna lose my job. So teaching wasn't gonna work either. Now, especially not in high school or anything below that. He said, Well, you know, we got a program here where we help, this is called athletic training, sports medicine, to get you, we help this, we work with athletes, we get them better, we keep them stronger, we keep them healthy. I said, I'm gonna, I said, I'm gonna check this out. And that's that's how I got started. And Dr. Chisholm, Dr. Chisholm became, he's again, he's left us many years ago. Um, and he has passed on, but he left, I remember he had a map, Doc. He had a map behind his desk. And on one day I got up enough nerve to ask him, I said, hey Doc, what's where are all those different pins you have on this map? You know, he said, he said, those are where my people go have gone to school and where they're now working in places all over the country. I'm like, wow. I said, I want to be on that map. I want to be one of those pins. You know what I'm saying? Wow. And that that's how it all started for me. So that was Dr. Bill Chisholm? Dr. Bill Chisholm, yes. In fact, I have an award on my desk. I have an award on my shelf here. The National Athletic Trainings Association started a separate group for the uh ethnic and diversity group, EDAC it's called. And EDAC had an award named for Bill Chisholm because when you walked into Bill Chisholm's training room, you saw men, you saw women, you saw black, you saw white, you saw Hispanic, you saw Chinese. I mean, it was just like the UN. He was he embraced everybody. And when I when I said, you know, I said, if I ever get a chance to do this, I'm gonna do just like him. I took pieces of all the men that I came in contact with who had an impact on me when it came to this profession. And I took pieces of all of them and kind of molded into my own philosophy about how to do things, besides the natural gifts that you know God blessed me with as far as how to deal with people, but other things that they taught me, even if it was from an administrative standpoint or if it was from a treatment or whatever it was, I just kind of brought them all

Mentors And The Map Pins

SPEAKER_01 21:10

in and kind of formed my own philosophy on how to do things.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Well, what's powerful about this, Raj, is the idea of mentorship and the idea of the journey. I'm look I'm really enjoying listening to your origin story here because I I didn't really quite know it. Uh, you know, I mean, we everybody just gets taken with you, but this origin story is incredible. The fact, and I think young people listening would be encouraged to know that look, you could be failing at something and not it not be going well, but if you have switch into whatever else might work. And that's true for all of us in life. If one thing, if that's what it sounded like you did, like you it didn't, you actually said I was failing in these uh in this area, in the sciences or whatever, the medical part. And look at and look at where you end up, like at

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yes, my I'm not ashamed to admit it, Doc. My grade point after at the second semester, first after the second semester of Brooklyn College, my grade point was a 1.99. I was about to be put on probation. My mother, my mother, rest her soul, bless her soul. She was a toughest nails. You know, any woman that can raise six kids in Brooklyn.

unknown 22:30

Right?

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Absolutely. My sister. But my mom, the grades got there before I could get home. She saw, and she said, we gotta have a little chat. I said, I knew I was in trouble. Because I knew I knew where I was going because I I I saw the grades before they got home.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

She took me outside. I said, Where are we going? She said, let's step outside. It was getting dark. And down on the corner, Doc, where these dudes, these dudes used to, they used to hang out on the corner around a trash can. And they would be, they were known for just hanging out, right? They had nothing else to do but just hang out around this corner, around this trash can. Know what they were doing with the trash can. And my, you know, at that time, I was uh, you know, my mom depended on me a lot to keep things going for the other kids to look up to me because I was the oldest, you know, because my father had stepped out of the picture. And she said, You have to make a choice. I said, Yes, ma'am, what would that be? She said, You want to be with them? Or you want to live in this house? I said, say less. That was it. That was it. That turned my whole, that that pivoted everything for me. I found, I knew I had to find a better way to do things in school. I still didn't know what I was gonna do. But then the blessing of the knee injury, if you call that a blessing, and going to meet those folks in that training room, Dr. Chisholm and Frank Walters and others, got me on the path, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

So so yeah, that's the other part about this, right? So you you were failing in the courses, you uh your mom, God rest her, so uh strong as she is, she takes you outside and she gives you the choice. Do you want to be, you know, path A or path B to figure it out? You go, this injury, which could be viewed as a setback, was it a patella injury? I thought I read.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah, I said they're all a patella tendinitis, which is very common, very common in basketball players. Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

So this injury sets you back, but then really what it looks like is almost like a divine um order, order to God is like moving you towards your career because you encounter Dr. Bill Chisholm in Brooklyn, you and you you get fascinated by this whole athletic training, healing uh journey, and then you start this journey.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Wow. Out of something that doesn't work, something incredible happens for you.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Right, that's right. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

And you know, so many of us forced the issue, Raj. I'm thinking about folks who are like pushing and trying to because you were trying to please your dad, you were trying to do the right thing. I mean, this is all you were trying to do the right thing here. Um, and what if you had stayed and forced this and forced this and forced this? Who knows where you would have ended up? I mean, God had a huge plan for you.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

You just had to get moved into the right path.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

That's right. Amen. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

That's amazing. So, look, this is the thing about our conversation today that I that's why I only have three or four questions because I knew that every question was going to really have a rich, deep answer. So now we know that the great, amazing Roger Hines wasn't just perfect, didn't come out of the womb just perfect, and that there was no struggle, there was no obstacle. You struggled and went through hardships and uh physical injuries, the mental torture of not doing well in school, having to pivot early to

A Full Circle Career Moment

SPEAKER_02 26:10

get to this place. And that's encouraging.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

That's super encouraging. Wow. So the question I have, the question I have now, which is gonna be a sort of a switch question, is a question about looking back at this career, we simply cannot uh go into every I know you have a thousand, a million memories, and I'm gonna challenge you to try to think of one as you look back at this great career that you have and tell us about one that sticks out. Is there anything as you look back over your career that sticks out to you as like, wow, man, that was a moment, that was a memory. I I cherish it, you know. Um, you know, something that you'll never forget uh as a part of what you've been through.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

This was probably the toughest question that you threw at me. I mean, this is probably tough respondent because as you said, there's so many, right? You and I have just finished uh a crazy run to an NBA championship, you know, sitting there and looking at each other, you know, looking riding on that bus on the parade and looking like, wow, this actually happened, right? We were sitting there with the other doctors and and uh and that comedian on the bus with us and just soaking it all in. It's like I can't believe we just did this, you know? Yeah. And holding that trophy in my hand and getting a picture with it, that was even more incredible. But it I had had a real to think about probably the most one of the most the amazing things that happened for me. I was uh it was my it was 20 in uh Mayor in back in 2018 some of my colleagues some of my colleagues and and classmates, former classmates from Brooklyn College went to the admin went to the administration at Brooklyn College and wanted to uh have me that every year Brooklyn College would find some, would identify someone as a distinguished graduate. And they they nominated me for that. It was approved by the president. And the biggest part of the biggest part of that, the culmination to that nomination and the and getting the award was being asked to speak at the commencement for Brooklyn College. May 21st, Doc, they asked me to speak at Barclay, Barclay Center, 10,000 kids. Wow. The mayor was on the dais, he was also speaking, but he came after me. Um and you know, it was just incredible to stand up and look out at this big arena, the sea of people, right? And to look over to that corner of the arena, way in the back where where the visitor's bench would be at Barclays when we would play the Nets, right? Uh-uh. And so I had five minutes to talk to these kids. And I'm looking up in the stands where my my brother and my nephew are up there. Um the the girls and my, you know, my family, my kids couldn't be there because I was in New York and they were in, you know, down here in Texas or South Carolina. But my but my brother Frank Walters, Dr. Walters, was there. He also, you know, he was one of the people involved with the nomination. Um a former employee that worked with the Knicks, also, who um was a Brooklyn College grad. They were all part of this whole thing to get me in this. And my message to those kids was like, oh, and I found out my cousin was there. All right, my cousin was from Brooklyn. We grew up on the same street. His daughter was in that graduating place. My niece. And I didn't even know it until I saw them outside as we're walking into the building, and I hear him, hey, Mike, call my name out. I'm like, hey, what are you doing here? And he says, My baby girl is graduating today. I said, You gotta be kidding me. And so I had to go off, kind of go off the reservation a little bit and call her name out because no one else was getting their names called out. And I saw her stand up and wave at me, and she sat down back around real quickly. But then I told the kids, I said, Look, in this little speech that I did, if a young trainee can come to a immigrant can come to this country, right, and get all the way to the point where he is looking out of this arena of these young stars who are all gonna bright, be bright, shining bright in their own entities for the future. But I went from that little island in the Caribbean to that spot over there on the floor, and I see all the heads turned because I was pointing to the corner where the bench is, and to sit in the bench as an NBA athletic trainer, I said, for you guys, it's sky's the limit. And I that was the end of my speech. And then the mayor, Adams gets up behind me and says, How am I supposed to follow that? But that was there have been a lot of things, Doc. You mentioned some of them already, you know, the gold medal with the we've just been part of an NBA championship, you know, even the watching the the the birth of the birth of my kids. And of course, you know, but that one stuck out the most because it I was there where it's where I started.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Yeah, the same place where you had the knee injury, the same place where you had the failing grades, the same place that your your where your mom had to like get you together to like get out of this and make something of yourself is the place that you come back to to be the commencement speaker. Yes. That is huge. And the fact that your message included Trinidad and Tobago, Trini, you know, the fact that you would bring up Trinidad, you know, that is big. Because it looked, I mean, Trinidad should take a bow, really. Every Trinidad should take a because look, you came from Trinity and all the way to New York and literally became the head athletic trainer of the New York Knicks. Yes. That in of itself, just from a geographical moment, is in of itself a place that we should acknowledge and certainly thank you, Trinidad and Tobago, for leading Roger Hines or being a place of birth. You know, that's big. So you know, I thought I read somewhere that you went back to Trinidad and

Returning To Trinidad To Teach

SPEAKER_02 32:20

had done something there uh a while ago. Uh can you can you share that uh what you did?

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Yeah, I um what was the year? Gosh, I can't remember the year.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

I can't remember uh you uh you went back there, I I guess I think it was 2011, maybe?

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah, I yeah, yeah. I think it was 2011, yeah. I got permission. I got permission from you know management and my boss to I was asked by uh a colleague down there who was very involved in the basketball world in Trinidad, which is very, very small compared to what we do here. But he found out about me after we met through an uh an acquaintance down here in Texas, um, and he asked me to come down there and would I be interested in doing a uh uh a clinic? It was like a three-day, it was three days, yes, uh a clinic um the training and conditioning uh for basketball. And I didn't know I did several presentations, lots of one-on-one stuff with uh Q ⁇ A stuff with a lot of the locals, they were the physios, the physical therapists, they weren't really athletic trainers. Um you don't find athletic trainers in Europe either, it's a Trinidad kind of followed the same group physical therapists, physical therapists who took care of everybody across the board, whether you're at or common folk. And that was an experience, you know. My father was still around at the time, and we were able to um kind of reconnect a little bit. Um folks, it kind of brought him out of what they said. The sports people said it kind of brought him out of the shadows a little bit because he'd kind of been hiding away up in Santa Cruz, and folks who were even interviewing me on the local TV people, they had no idea. They said we didn't even know this legend was back in the country.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Your father's name, so everyone can hear it, and because he is a legend in Trinidad.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Yeah. Carlton, Carlton Hines, his nickname. He went by Squeaky. They called him Squeaky because he was not a very big man, but he was an unbelievable soccer player. The story behind his nickname was that one day he was coming home from school, and this little baby deer kind of followed him home and it became his pet. And all they did was make this squeaky noise. So he became this, he that's how he got the name Squeaky. Wow. So I was always Squeaky's big son. And it was amazing to do that. It was a lot of fun. Um, I still had some connections uh there through this, um, and I'm trying to help them uh get their basketball uh programs up to the butt hey, the last pick of the of the draft this year, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Yes, there's a pick from Trinidad. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

There's uh yeah, a kid from Trinidad is the first pick of the draft, the first pick of the draft is a Jamaican, the last pick of the draft is a Trinity.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

So, Raj, again, I the the difficulty with this kind of conversation

Earning Trust In The NBA

SPEAKER_02 35:10

is that it can go in so many different directions because of what you bring to the table. I do have to two more questions for you. Um we just discussed what you remember and something extremely positive, and and I get it. Uh, what's the challenge though? What was a hard, difficult one thing? I and I know that they're on a journey, there are probably many, but is there one particular challenge or difficult time you remember and how you handled it for our audience?

SPEAKER_01 35:41

It was at the very beginning of my not the career, but the NBA queer. And I was coming from a small college environment where I was, you know, I was teaching, I was a trainer, I was a strength coach, I was doing everything. And throughout the course of that time, I was able to meet and and uh and kind of work a little bit with the head athletic trainer for the Hawks, Joseph, Joe O'Toole. Joe, again, to go forward, fast forward to the future, became my one of my mentors. But he uh he I got wind of a position that was opening up with them. And I always said, you know, I was I'm gonna give this a shot. You know, you always want to be in here, whatever career you're in, you want to get to the top, right? Whether you get there or not, right? But for us as athletic trainers, to get to professional sports, that's the that's the pinnacle for us. That's the top of the mountain. And I said, you know, I'm gonna give it a shot. The Hawks were looking for an assistant athletic trainer and a strength and additional coach. And I'm like, hey, that's me. That's what I did, right? Um, so I said, let me give it a shot. They took somebody down the somebody through the pipeline told me about it, was ready in the NBA. I reached out to Joe. Joe said, apply for it. I'm gonna get I'll do my best to get you in here for interview, but long story short, I get the job. Now, here I am, no experience working with professional athletes, right? Not even top division one athletes. I'm at a small, little, small, little, which was a small NAI school transitioning into Division I, small, very small school. Almost like a private school, but it was actually a public school. But it had a private kind of a image in South Carolina. Now I'm trying to figure out how do I get these guys on board with what I'm trying to do as a strength coach. Because that was my main job. The assistant part to assisting Joe as a trainer, that was my second job. My main focus was to get these guys ready to play, get them in shape. And I remember one of the veteran players said to me, when he met me, he says, Hey, you know, I'm good. I've been doing this for forever. I'm happy you're on board, you're here with us. Congratulations, but I'm good. And I'm thinking, oh, this is gonna be if I can't get this guy going, I'm in trouble, right? So I I I go to Joe and I'm saying, Joe, what do I do? How do I? He said, You just do your thing. You do your you wouldn't be here if you we didn't think that you could do this job. And that gave me like a whole, now I know I've got his back. His backing. So now I'm still trying to work on these guys, still trying to go. Here comes another injury situation, right? Which is a setback. A setback for the star player. I I'm not gonna mention his name for privacy, a setback for the star player of the team at that time. Anybody that follows basketball in the 90s, they'll know who I'm talking about without naming anybody's name. He has a serious injury that requires surgery and now a long period of say four to six weeks recovery. Who's he gotta spend that time with? Little old me.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Oh, wow. And you the you at the time, just to be clear, you did not feel as if you were like you had a bar to climb.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Yeah, we we weren't we weren't really clicking because he kind of felt like he didn't need me because he knew how to get himself ready to play ball. He didn't need me. I'm good, man. You know, go work with them other guys, I'm good. But I knew I knew that I had to win over one of these vets in order to get everybody to follow because strength can strength and conditioning was a new thing coming into the NBA now. There was no strength coaches. In fact, one of my interns uh recently sent me a picture. He was at a conference. One of our interns, he was at a conference. He sends me a picture of one of the slides at this conference. And the father, godfather of strength coaches in the NBA is now giving a presentation on the history of the NBA strength coaches and whose name is up there on that board. Four guys' names are up there. Mine. Wow. I was blown away. Wow. And he this kid texts me the picture and he said, You never told me you were a strength coach in the NBA. I said, No, I didn't. I I wasn't making any big deal about being on the cusp of anything or being the first of anything. And he said, Man, I didn't have no idea. You this is like amazing. He's going, oh I said, okay, go back to your conference and have a good time. But thank you for sending me that slide. But so this was a whole new concept for NBA players. So now I gotta work with this guy, and I'm like, this is gonna be even crazier. I gotta work with this guy now. But he he bought in thought out he had no choice. And that's after that four-week period and six weeks or so, he came back to join the active roster. The head coach made a comment to me, and he made a comment to my boss and said, I've never seen this guy in better shape to play basketball since I've been working with this team.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

Wow. Yes. But what did you say to him? Like, you know, because I I think for those of us listening or trying to figure it out, like what is the what was the secret sauce there? Because at some point you and he had to be alone and talking. Were you direct with him? Were you uh did did how did how did that work?

SPEAKER_01 40:59

I just found we found some common interests, right? Okay, whether it was sports, whether whatever it was, I don't remember exactly. We found some common interests about our in our backgrounds, and we were able to just grow from there. And he said, you know what, let's I said, let's I and I actually I was younger then, so I could actually continue to that level of a workout. I said, hey, I'm gonna do these workouts with you. Because I was like 35 years old, so I still had a relatively still.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Oh, I see. So you worked out with him.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

I worked out with him.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

I see.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

So let's go. Until we got to the more advanced stages where I can't keep up with this kind of workout. Yeah, he was ready then. He was ready to go on then. And now with him, he even he even tried to hire me to work with his wife. And I was like, no, I can't do that. I work for a team. I can't be working part-time for you.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Well, I guess once somebody gets confidence in you, man, that's the way it is. You know, uh they they trust you. The trust comes up.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

And they followed, and then other guys started looking and saying, like, what's going on with him over there? You know, what's going on there? And then they started to really buy in. They weren't just like, you know, pushing back. Look, let's go do this workout, let's go do this workout. Even the head coach at some point came to me and said, I want you to put me through some workouts after practice when you're done with the players. And I'm like, sure, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

And wow, so from a from a challenge point of view, you had to overcome your self-doubt or or any, you had to overcome that moment of like anxiety that you get when you walk into a moment, you know, with these athletes and to can I prove it? Can I, can I, can I make a difference here? And especially if they don't even want you, they're like, listen, I can do this without you. Yes, you what you overcame all of that.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Yes. And it wasn't to, and it and I, you know, the thing that too, that I was a big basketball fan, and I'm and I'm like in a room with these guys I watch on television. I'm like, this guy, this dude is I'm and you know, being in South Carolina, which was just a stone store from Atlanta, that was everybody in my area, we loved that team. And they were like, and when people found out I was gonna go work for them, they're like, wow, you're gonna go work for the I was like, yeah, man, I'm out of here, I'm gone. And it was just, you know, I never looked back after that. But that was the that that was an amazing, that was a challenge for me to overcome because I really didn't know what did I get myself into? Um, can I really do this? Right? After leaving an almost tenured position in Charleston at a college, where I could have just sat there and just said, look, I'm just gonna, you know, go through it, go through the process here, try to get tenure in the teaching department and just be here for be a lifer. But in the back of my head, and all of us, like I said, as at athletic trainers in our profession, the pinnacle for us is to work with the best athletes in the world, and that's I got a chance. Not not the NFL, not baseball, not not not, you know, major league soccer. For me, it would have been basketball because that was the game in New York where I came from. You know, basketball. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

It makes sense. Well, we're running out of time, but I have to get this in. There are three lessons that you have learned about. Across your career. It could be two, but I I just, you know, I always go with three. If you had

Flexibility Authenticity Staying Sharp

SPEAKER_02 44:05

to put it in as succinctly, like, okay, what are the top three lessons that you learned that you carry with you?

SPEAKER_01 44:13

So, Doc, I would say the top three, uh, and I was told this by my first boss, right? He said, be flexible and adapt to change. He said the the he said that the he told me one thing. He said the the the the the uh only constant in the NBA is change. Wow. Whether you're changing players every season, coaches coming and going, management changes sometimes, ownership changes. He's like, you have to be able to adapt to these things on the fly a lot of times in order to survive. I said, okay, I remember that. Flexible. Um he told me again, this is another thing from one of my mentors, just be yourself. This was this is this was honed into my head by from from Dr. Frank Walters. Be yourself, right? Because the guys you have to work with, they have you got to build trust with them. And you got these guys are really sharp. You know, don't don't think that they can't see through the phony baloney, the smoking mirrors. They can see through all that nonsense. And if you are trying to fake it till you make it, you ain't gonna make it. Because they're not gonna trust you. They'll just give you, you know, pet answers and yeah, whatever, and they're gonna not they're not having any confidence in you and what you're doing. So you have to to to to I pick that up early, just to be myself. And let the chips fall where they may. If this is not meant to be a long-lasting thing, well, thank God I got to this point. I enjoyed that that part of it, I'll move on to something else. But obviously, God had another, you know, he had other ideas in store for me. The and the one part that, and I said I this one was to stay on top of your game. So you have we have to go do, we have to do continuing education uh just like you do in your medical field. We have to do that as well to keep up with the latest and greatest. And I always try to tell people, don't become complacent. Because that even caught me for a minute, too. That caught me for a minute when I got to my first position as a head athletic trainer when I left Atlanta. You know, I'm like, I made it. I'm here, I'm at the top. Ain't nobody can tell me nothing right now. And I got I got stuck in that for a minute. And I remember just listening this past few days to to your guy, Kendall Glasby, on I forget which day it was, but he was talking about not getting complacent, not becoming complacent.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

KG, that's right. You did talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

And I mentioned that hit me right there. And I said, Man, because I remember how it was for me during that time. I I thought that I'm I'm here at the top now, so you can't tell me nothing. I know it all. I got all the answers, but no, I didn't have all the answers. But I had to learn those lessons along the way too. And so those three things is what I would say would be the top three for me.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

Wow, I record them in my mind as being flexible, being adaptable, being yourself, being authentic, and and and and and and handling your business, stay on your game, you know, because those three things are what keeps you in the game. Because you've had a long career. I mean, we're talking three decades in the NBA, of you, and you are telling us that flexibility and authenticity and and just being having integrity by staying in, you know, uh keeping up with your training and your education and all of that matters. Um and I think that's a that's a great message for anyone in any field to take in, to take in. Yeah. Yeah. So what advice would you give somebody? Let's say there's some young cats out there who want to enter into this field of what you've done here in sports medicine and in athletic training. What advice would you give them? What would you tell them? What would you like to tell them?

SPEAKER_01 48:09

I you know, I mentioned some of the names of the men who really were, you know. There was Joe O'Toole, you know, Dr. Bill Chisholm. Dr. Frank Walters is only a couple years older than me, but he was like my older brother, my big brother, I call him. There was Bob Binke at uh at Indiana State University, where I got the chance to, a big even another crazy experience to work with uh a guy like, you know, Legend. Yeah, I got to work with him in a grad student. But these men, you know, these men, uh I I can go back to, except I can go back to Bill Chisholm. Uh we lost Dr. Binke recently as well, too, but I think, no, I don't think we lost him yet. But he doesn't have the mental capacity anymore. But there is Dr. Walters, my brother, and there's Joe Toole still there with me. I was able to be honored to ask to speak and introduce him to the first class of uh of uh induction for the NBA Athletic Trainers Hall of Fame. And I was there to speak in on his behalf in Chicago and introduce him, and that was a very emotional time. I had my for my speech, couldn't read a single note. My eyes started tearing up, I couldn't read the notes, and I just winged it after that because that's how much this man meant to me to help me get to where I started. He opened the door to let me in, and then he just left and he said, just flap your wings and keep flying. He just turned me loose. And he told me the other day, he said, You lasted longer than I did. I said, Okay, you know, I didn't know about all that. I wasn't keeping track of the years, but I would lean, I would tell these kids, you find mentors, people who are willing to help you, don't forget about them when you as you're climbing. You can always go back to them. They have that experience. They've they've been there where you are trying to get to. They've been down those roads, they've had those challenges. They may not have shared them with you during your time with them, but I guarantee you go back to them, they'll say, Yeah, man, this is how I handle this, right? I would if you're in it, if you're thinking about you want to make the most money doing whatever you want to do, you're in the wrong business, okay? You can't, it's not about the money. If you're if that's all you're thinking about, you're not gonna last long. Because you're gonna be you're gonna be very disappointed with the money, all right? You have to have a heart of service because you're gonna have to you're serving people. And a lot of athletic trainers, we're not even just taking care of the of the the players. We're taking care of the coaches. We got people coming to us. I mean, everybody comes to us because we have this little this room in this building that's like a safe haven where people can actually come and they can either be deal with some issue, you know. They maybe just need somebody to talk to, right? And they may have enough confidence in being able to speak to you, and then you can tell them, well, look, you I need I know somebody who can help you even more. Just go talk to this guy, right? Um, but yes, if it's about the money, yeah, everybody wants fair compensation, but if that's what you're more about, then don't think about this field. Wow. You're gonna be disappointed. Yeah. Um another thing too, I don't, you know, don't don't bounce all over the place. Chasing things. Don't bounce here, bounce there, go back. When I was involved with the hiring, you know, the hiring processes throughout my years, the the biggest red flags for me was looking at somebody one year here, then two years over there, then jumped over here for another year, then jumped them back. You you don't have any stability. You want someone who's not saying that you want someone who's gonna come work for you for the rest of their career, but you want somebody to you want to show throughout your resume that you are you're you're that you have some, you know, you move to this spot because you thought maybe it was a step up after three, four years or whatever it is. There's no number. But for someone, a young person to have 10 different jobs is like, okay, what what happened? You know, what why why can't you adjust to people? Can you not work with certain kind of people? What is it that the problem? And that gives me a little bit of angst. Wow. And the last thing is the sacrifice to work at this level, the sacrifices that you're gonna have to deal with. The biggest one that's gonna affect is the family. And if you are if you're thinking about or if you have a family and you have a wife and kids or a partner and children, whatever it is, everybody going into this has to understand that you are not always gonna be available. There's so much demand on what you have to do for the the group that you're working for, whatever the team is, that it's gonna it's gonna put a lot of weight on you. And you have to have a good partner who understands that and has this, is strong enough to deal with that and understand that there's gonna be times where you're not just gonna be there, you're not gonna be there. And I didn't plan on missing graduations and birthdays and holidays. You know, I worked, uh I think, I can't remember, I could count on one hand how many Christmases I was home for. You know, I'm actually happy for Christmas because NBA plays games on Christmas, right? And for some reason the teams I was with always played on Christmas Day for almost every season. So it it it the the the the sacrifice is probably the biggest in trying to find that balance, that work life balance is really tough. So those are the things you have to, you know, and people don't you don't think about that when you're thinking about jumping into the career. All you're thinking is like I'm going to the top.

SPEAKER_03 53:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

Then all of a sudden, as you're in there and these things start to drag on you, you're like, oh crap, I just forgot this, or I forgot that, or I mismissed this, or I'm on a FaceTime thing trying to help my my my child with homework or whatever it is. Thank God for technology nowadays, right? There's that sacrifice. So those are the things that I would give them as far as like these are the things that you should think about when you're trying to pursue this kind of career.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

You know, I really love that, Raj. I really felt like that was just excellent

Mentorship Stability Sacrifice And Closing

SPEAKER_02 54:05

because you really hit on some things that um people ask about all the time and they don't really understand the value of mentorship. Like you just talked about that. You talked about mentorship stability and sacrifice, and I feel as if that mentorship piece is so critical because finding the right mentor is really a gold, a gold moment when you find that. And taking care of that mentor and that mentorship relationship, I think over time is also critical. So I really love that idea. So, anybody out there listening, you want to be like a Roger Hines, you want to get mentorship played a huge role in this man's success. And if you're listening and you want to climb, do you have a mentor? Is the question that we would be asking you, and and maybe it's time to begin finding a mentor. I mentor some young doctors as well, and it's amazing like how little how hard it is to find good mentors. So um that's a very powerful message. The other message you said that stuck with me as we close out is that you have to be think about stability in your in your journey. You make sure we get enough time. If I'm listening to you correctly, Raj, you you said that we should plant our feet and and and get good experience and not bounce from one to the thing to the other and have like 15 different experiences that are like eight months each, as opposed to like one place for two to three years. And as we look at your career and and I and I prepared, uh I was amazed at the the significant amount of time you spent in each area of your own uh journey. And that's also a message for all of us. Don't just be attracted to things and run from one to the other, build experience. Even if you're in a job or something that doesn't work well, I feel like sometimes that's training ground to learn, to endure, and you can walk away from it with more experience.

SPEAKER_01 56:03

Yes, yes. I left out one thing when it far as my start point. There was actually, and about jumping around. So my first job ever was at a tiny little tiny college again in Brooklyn, St. Francis College, who is not even open anymore. They closed down, but I was there for two years. And here I am, doc, two years in. I'm in I have a master's degree, but I am lining soccer fields and washing uniforms, and I'm like, I didn't get my master's to do this. I stuck it out for two years, and they was being paid. Uh I had a 10-month contract, so now and then in the summertime I gotta go find other work to keep things going, right? And you know, I said after two years, I said, I can't keep this up. I didn't get a master's to wash.

SPEAKER_03 56:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

Right? I got a master's, I mean, I was still taking care of the players, but I didn't want to continue on. And that's when I looked and started searching, and I and I found the College of Charleston, and I was there. I was in Charleston for 12 years before I moved on to the Wow.

SPEAKER_02 57:04

Yeah, but even so, you you spent two years there doing the washing and the grinding and all of that. So it wasn't two months. No, two years. So that there's something about that idea that you're talking about, trying to find stability and demonstrate for yourself that you can stick through something, even if it's not meant for you. That's what I appreciate. That it was still a two-year journey to do that, and the humility it takes to do that as well. Um, the other thing you talked about was sacrifice, and I thought that was amazing. One of the things that I've seen in sports, across all the sports that I'm involved in, is the level of sacrifice that it requires. I don't think it's really readily um apparent that you will be missing birthdays and you'll be missing Christmas and you'll be missing uh anniversaries, that you would be consumed by this 24-7 gauntlet that's in front of. Yeah. And that takes a lot. It takes its toll. And it takes special people in the family to even understand this. And it takes a special human being to be committed to this. And you're right, the the money doesn't always average out to the amount of hours and uh amount of uh work it takes, it doesn't really, this is not the career for. If you're looking for big money uh and an easy path, this is probably not the wisest choice uh to make. Yet it's still one of the most fulfilling kinds of jobs you could ever do.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

Because you're helping, you're working with the best athletes, basketball athletes in the world, not just athletes, the best basketball athletes in the world, and you're contributing to their health and their well-being. And when they get damaged and they have to be brought back to be to go back out there and play, you're helping get them back to that spot they were before they got injured. And those are the things, and then and then you have a good partner, if it's whether it's your wife or your whatever your partner who understands and is willing to deal with everything else so that you can do this. That's a blessing. You know, that's a blessing. You go through all those ups and downs that that carry on throughout that time. You know, it wasn't just uh from into the MBA, it was not just a straight shot trajectory right to the championship. There was a lot of peaks and valleys, you know, and and that you and I talked about just a couple of weeks ago when we had our little chat about about how this is coming to a close for me and what am I gonna do next, right? And then but what a way to end, right?

SPEAKER_02 59:39

Yes, yes, and what a way to also begin the next phase of the Roger Hines journey, which is gonna probably bring all kinds of exciting things for us to talk about here on the sweet spot again. Because knowing you as I do, brother, I know that great things are ahead. I just sense it. I sense that we're gonna be talking about something amazing that is gonna open up as you venture out into the bigger sea. Uh, and uh with all that you're bringing and carrying, and uh, I think you have a lot to share with the world, and I'm glad that we got to talk to you here in the sweet spot about this. Thank you for sharing that wisdom and being so open and so uh honest. It's it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

It was my pleasure. I was I was the one honored. I'm sorry, and I'm honored. You know, I'm blessed to have the chance to be you know be here with you and to and to just be part of this amazing program. You got it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:34

Well, it's mutual, brother. It is absolutely mutual. And uh I look forward to having you back on the sweet spot to talk about some more things. I know that we only touched the surface today, but that's what we had to do. We had to just get people to know that uh I wanted people to actually know Roger Hines. I mean, I the people I told them that you were gonna be coming on the sweet spot. They're like, ah, come on, man. You're just gonna take clips from the YouTube and then you're gonna put your voice over it. This is what they told me. They said you're gonna take some clips from YouTube of Roger Hines' talk, and then you're gonna try to make us give us a feeling that you were really with him. No, no, no, you were you don't you don't work like that, so that is. No, no, I would never do that. Knowing these cats, they probably still won't believe me. But uh, thank you so much, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:22

And uh look forward to having you back on here again and again. Yes, sir. All right, thank you, brother. God bless you. All right, bye-bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

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