Welcome Back Michael Manswell

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Welcome to the sweet spot.

SPEAKER_05 0:38

Okay, sweet spotters. Welcome back. Welcome back to the sweet spot. Our guest today is no stranger to you. If you've been joining us on the sweet spot, this is Michael Manswell, who we had the pleasure of speaking with. As you know, he's a Division I football player. Well, he played Division I football at West Virginia University. He studied sport and exercise psychology and worked as a strength and conditioning coach at IMG Academy. He now provides psychotherapy to adults through a national private practice and is the founder of Hype Consulting. Always a pleasure to have the privilege to gain wisdom from what you have gathered over the years. You know, last time speaking to you, what was so cool was that you were just so honest, so transparent. And for those of you who who may have missed our last episode, I invite you to go back and listen to this brother's journey. There's so much that you brought to the table. Welcome back.

SPEAKER_06 1:38

Thank you, sir. It's such a pleasure to be back. You know, it's it's starting to get therapeutic coming back again. So I appreciate you making time for me. Uh and yes, thank you for the wonderful introduction. I'm excited for uh not only just like a deeper dive into everything, but like you said, just sharing wisdom for you know for us to learn more and then obviously for the audience.

SPEAKER_05 2:01

So

What Three Roles Reveal

SPEAKER_05 2:02

you've experienced college athletics as a player, as a physical performance coach, and as a counselor, correct? Right. What did what do you what did each role allow you to see that that others couldn't?

SPEAKER_06 2:20

No, absolutely. I think being like in the world of college athletics, one of my favorite things I've been very passionate about and like just really honored to be a part of is the before, the during, and the after of that specific setting. The process, you know, to make that transition from you know high school to collegiate. That's its own unique uh journey. And I think at that stage, you know, you learn more about what it takes to actually be committed. You know, you learn your limits. I think that's the biggest thing that anything I can take away. But granted, like you said, being a coach, it's one of those things where you learn how to push other people's buttons in like a very unique and personal way, right? Because you're finding different ways to make someone better, and yet you have to create the space for them to also like come into that process for themselves. And then, of course, like kind of like the afterwards uh standpoint, being a uh clinician, it was one of those things, like now you have to prepare for the inevitability. And I think a lot of people kind of underestimate it's not like sport is just over for you, but 90% of the times for a lot of college athletes, like they're done after college. And so, what do you do to you know take the next four to five years to prepare yourself for whatever life looks like, hopefully, after you graduate or whatever the case may be after your college career ends? And so the biggest thing I learned from uh, you know, those different phases is just recognizing that that four to five year gap is very pivotal in very intricate ways. And the best way to prepare yourself is to start early, but also leave room for things that are completely new and challenging, just like the transfer portal, uh eligibility changes, athletes are now getting paid. So all those different parameters, and yet the biggest thing still stays true. You only have four to five years uh in college, not necessarily to figure life out, right? I don't like to be dramatic, but you only have four to five years to really test yourself in ways um that not a lot of people uh underestimate or they overestimate. And so for me, just being uh a part of everyone's journey, and of course reflecting on my journey at that time, it meant the world to me because you know, 17 to 21, 22, you're still so young and you still have so much life ahead of you.

SPEAKER_05 4:49

Yeah, that's the the part that I think can get missed. Uh so

How First Sessions Build Trust

SPEAKER_05 4:54

what are some patterns that you you think you've seen?

SPEAKER_06 4:57

One of my favorite type of people to work with, though, is people who are brand new to counseling, right? Or obviously brand new to mental performance coaching. And I think one of the biggest things I recognize is especially that very first meeting, I always like to set it up as like this is just a general check-in, right? We can get into all the logistics, we can get into all the confidentiality stuff, but I just like to start by having a conversation. I think one of the biggest things I enjoy out of the first initial conversation is just recognizing if there is a problem, cool. That is, you know, a part of the human nature. And just giving them that space to recognize that, like, you know, this is just a personal development uh resource for you. The pattern is uh initially, you know, people come in because there is something apparently wrong. It might be a family issue, a coaching issue, uh, a personal issue, of course, with like their performance in sport. And just allowing them to have that space to just simply acknowledge that there's an issue and then scheduling a you know a future follow-up, that's really just step one. But for the first initial conversation, I always like to keep it light, uh, keep it engaging, but most importantly, keep it insightful.

SPEAKER_05 6:07

Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I can see why it's so easy to talk to you right off the bat. You just meet folks where they're at. And once you understand the fullest story, yeah. How often does the real issue turn out to be something different than the issue that comes in? Do you have a sense of what is that sort of like the process that they come in with one thing and then it's usually another thing underneath, or is it the same?

SPEAKER_06 6:33

I think for me personally, in my experience, I enjoy, you know, addressing whatever the root issue is, right? So if an athlete comes in because they're struggling with uh competing for a roster spot, right? It's as cliche as uh, you know, the test of time, but it's one of those things like it's a real reality. There might be an issue that we're gonna address, you know, mutually, but nine times out of ten, it's probably circulating from another aspect or another area of your life. And so, like I said, you know, keeping it insightful, it allows them to gain awareness of just like, oh man, you know what? Now that I think about it, yeah, I was worrying about, you know, this roster spot, but I'm also noticing like I have a lot of performance anxiety that I just haven't been dealing with. And so that's ramped up in the background. And so letting them know that this process is a journey, letting them know that uh it's it's it's on them to do the work. So, of course, establishing rapport, but establishing a sense of accountability, it's amazing how much you can get out of, you know, especially for me. I like to have our first session be around like 30 minutes or so, just for a channel. Um, but when you get into the logistics, man, the power of an hour is is very eye-opening. So this is your time to shine in a completely different way than what they're used to.

SPEAKER_05 7:53

Right. That makes so much sense. And I love the idea that you keep it to 30 minutes, that you keep it brief, because sometimes with high performers, they don't really have a have the bandwidth really to sit for the full hour or 90 minutes or whatever it takes to do this analytical stuff. So I love the fact that you also are so conscious of the time. It also sounds like you allow the trust, you you give space for the trust to build. And that's an important piece for you, right? The trust.

SPEAKER_06 8:18

I'm always big on boundaries, and I always tell them I was like, hey, if there is like a specific topic or a specific concept that makes you uncomfortable that you're just not ready to uh address, I'm very big on um on respecting those boundaries early on, because like you said, that's how the trust pays off down the road.

SPEAKER_05 8:38

In

The Emotional Shock Of Benching

SPEAKER_05 8:39

your experience, Michael, which forms of distress are do you think are easiest for coaches or teammates or families to or even fans to miss when it comes to working with athletes? What do you think is easy to miss and that we that we kind of miss?

SPEAKER_06 8:59

Yeah, that's a great point. I was watching a uh an interview a couple weeks ago, and I think one of the biggest things that we miss is when athletes get benched during unique situations, I like to say, right? Like athletes getting benched, that is unfortunately a normal part of the game, right? But to have a bad game, it's so normalized in our society that we're just like, hey, he's not getting the job done or she's not getting the job done, we gotta sub them out, right? And that is like a unique nuance of the job. And I think that's so easy to get missed, is because you know, an athlete who maybe struggles with perfectionism, uh, an athlete that doesn't know how to handle failure, doesn't know how to confront and navigate adversity uh effectively, being benched is a normal aspect to us. To them, it's the team doesn't trust me. My coach doesn't trust me. I'm actually not cut out for this, you know, level of competition. Um, the meet, whatever the media was saying that week was absolutely right. And so it just creates that, you know, the our favorite uh analogy, the rabbit hole, of some type of validating truth. And I think that one um is so easy to miss because you know you get benched and it's you know, you have a bad game and it's like okay, you know, it's always the next week or it's always the next game, and you gotta learn how to bounce back. But there are people who literally struggle learning how to bounce back or regulate their emotions um when it's unexpected or when it is expected, right? And so I think that's one of the biggest things that we know.

SPEAKER_05 10:34

Absolutely. That's so much sense. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And and and there's so few places for them to turn when they get benched like that. So I guess having somebody like you around is is is so helpful. It's it's a safe space. I suppose you create a safe space for them to be able to have these conversations.

SPEAKER_06 10:53

Exactly. And especially, you know, one of my favorite type of athletes uh uh to work with are like the star athletes that have never been benched before. Like they literally don't know what that's like from you know youth to maybe high school, of course, to collegiate, and then of course to pro. If you're always quote unquote viewed as the winner, or you're always the star athlete, the idea of you being on the bench doesn't make sense unless you like you are like subbing out for someone for like an injury or you know, some some type of series where you know you're not on the field or you're not on the court at the time, and uh when everyone expects you to be on the field, all of a sudden you being on the bench is like, oh, you kind of forget how how humanizing it can be.

When The System Creates Distress

SPEAKER_05 11:39

So that that does that does bring me to the point of the ecosystem that the athlete lives in, the athletic environment. I would love to get your take on this. I find that with athletic environments, they take there's a tendency to focus on their their habits, their discipline, their resilience. Yes. How much of the distress you've encountered was generated, and I'm really interested in this, it was generated, in your estimation, by the actual environment and the ecosystem around the athlete as opposed to coming from the athlete.

SPEAKER_06 12:13

The power of resources, accessibility, and really like that professionalism, right? When you're in an athletic high-performance ecosystem. This was like such a new world for me. I kind of just went in with an open mind of like these things are designed for me to get better. It is now my obligation, it is now my accountability to maximize these resources to my advantage. Not a lot of athletes get like that because we also know that there is a uh type of athlete that title, there's a type of athlete that doesn't have the resources like for a long period of time. So everything's brand new, and it's sometimes it can be overwhelming to have a lot of resources. Um, when I was a strength and conditioning coach, um, one of the biggest things I always preach was the stuff you do now can help you maintain a long life. And I think, especially in these environments, these ecosystems are very vast, depending on what level you get, but especially at the pro level, right? You want to be in a position of uh sustainability at that point. Like you can have all the talent in the world, but if you don't uh if you don't protect the talent, it's only gonna last so long. So I think for me, it's one of those things like athletic ecosystems, they can be intimidating, right? It is it is a lot, but I think athletes that enter it with open-mindedness, uh, a sense of curiosity to like improve. And then obviously that sense of accountability, like we talked about earlier, of like, how can I get better? The sky's the limit at that point. Now all of a sudden it's not intimidating, it's actually inviting and encouraging.

SPEAKER_05 13:52

I have the opposite experience in some ways. I have athletes who uh in some ways sometimes are just like pissed off with the environment or the ecosystem and they feel as if the ecosystem is not for them, it's not helping them. Each athlete has to be responsible for the discipline, the habits, and the resilience, and not really rely on the ecosystem to either cuddle them or or or try to help them through it. Um, or even if they run into opposition in the ecosystem, or tensions, as you said, or intimidation or or just resistance in the system, they is still on them. Is that is that fair or no?

SPEAKER_06 14:26

Kind of like uh as cliche cliche as it is, the old uh sport quote, it's like you need it more than like anyone else. We're all here as a support system, right? And so for an athlete, if you're not supporting yourself, the question mark then goes to you. If you go back and you check your uh your track history, right, and we track your progress, and uh the coach, you know, does like a performance evaluation, let's say like a like a summer training camp for you know whatever sport you play. If you never go into the weight room, you only go into the weight room, you know, you maximize your weightlifting, but you don't go in the ATs, you don't get prehab, you don't check in with the nutritionist, you don't uh meet with maybe your performance coach or your, or I'm sorry, your position coach or anything like that. Where's the progress that's showing that you're actually invested? And athletes have to have that self-reflection of like, oh yeah, I can't just get into this mindset, like, no, I'm gonna just show up on Fridays, Saturdays, or Sunday, and then I'm gonna just ball out. And it's like, in this world, especially within the collegiate to pro transition, that flames out pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_05 15:35

100%. That just makes so much sense.

Protecting Athletes In Hard Cultures

SPEAKER_05 15:38

Suppose an athlete needs emotional safety, they need clinical treatment, they need rest, they need protection, but you have a coach or a system that is looking for better performance and it's driving the performance bus hard and has no sympathy, empathy, or any desire to even hear anything about emotional safety or needing a clinical treatment or rest or or protection in some way, form, or fashion. One, have you encountered this? Two, how do you approach it?

SPEAKER_06 16:11

When there's a clinical need and there is their, there's actually a deterrent that's actually preventing this type of uh engagement. Now we're cooking with a totally different set of skills. This is now when the accountability gets flipped back onto the coaching staff, the support service providers, and you're right, like the leaders that make up that uh high performance culture. The very thing that they uh avoid is probably the very thing they need. So everyone wants to go into the gym and get better, everyone wants to put up a thousand shots before practice. And sometimes the biggest thing you just need to do is sleep, eat a good meal, and go to bed on time. Certain actions or certain beliefs are gonna be barriers. So, regardless of how bad you want to win, if we keep this up, we're not gonna reach our goal. And I think, especially with coaches nowadays, versus of course, I can only imagine coaches a decade ago, a decade plus uh ago. If you don't learn how to be open and empathize, it's gonna show in your uh in your culture. The more value that you guys create uh within an ecosystem is an empathetic ecosystem, the teams and the cultures and the players can reach heights that maybe they didn't think was possible simply by just creating a safe space.

SPEAKER_05 17:28

Yeah, yeah. So have you had to have a difficult conversation with a coach or a manager or a front office or to be protected, maybe they need a day off or something like that. And uh, and the coach is like, heck no, we're not doing that.

SPEAKER_06 17:44

Yeah, unfortunately, yes. I think that's that's the nature of the beast of what you know this field is, and especially just like what it's low-key always been, but we just actually make uh attention to. But yeah, you know, um, eight times out of ten, it's usually just the reactiveness of like something very traumatic in their life. So it's like, you know, it's easy to just be, you know, past the eye test where it's like, oh, they're not giving 100% effort, or you know, they're they don't want to be here, their energy is driving down. It's like, yeah, it's because they're going through something. Now, obviously, uh, you know, respecting the confidential confidentiality aspect, but I always enjoy telling coaches, especially like in that pre-season, that off-season phase, like, hey, like things are gonna come up. Like, that's plain and simple. Sometimes, you know, it's that it's that empathetic uh reframe for you know, coaches, managers, you know, whatever the case may be. It's like put yourself in your shoes or put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel if you know you had this opportunity of a lifetime, you're doing everything you can, something out of your control happens, but then all of a sudden everyone says, no, it doesn't matter, you still gotta show up. You would feel some type of way too. So instead of, you know, with it being met with hesitancy or like kind of disingenuous, it's actually empathetic to just being like, hey, you know, they opened up, they told me about what happened. Are they okay? Like that's the number one question. And I think once coaches start recognizing that and making that more um proactive in their engagement, the rapport you're gonna get from an app at you moving forward is really life-changing.

SPEAKER_05 19:17

Yeah, I really love your answer because you also spoke a lot to something that I've had to do too in my work, and and I it's an art and it's a science. We have to build build relationships on two levels, build it with the coaches and the staff and with the player.

SPEAKER_06 19:32

Yeah, absolutely. And I think when everyone's on one accord, it's a beautiful thing. That's what makes sports so great.

SPEAKER_05 19:40

It does, it does, especially when it we're all aligned. And and I think that's a special role that that individuals in your role hold.

Confidentiality And The Need To Know

SPEAKER_05 19:49

Have you found yourself having to hold information that changed how you understood the athlete and then uh and knowing that you couldn't share this with the coach, but somehow having to navigate and and and and navigate the scenario. Have you been in that situation? And what tips or advice would you have for us?

SPEAKER_06 20:13

The standard of being entrusted with very valuable and just you know, empathetic information is important. And one thing I was very fortunate enough uh when I got to Arizona, um, the staff that I joined at the time, they they really did a great job developing me in a position of understanding that type of nuance, like you said, that art and that science when it comes to one, being the new clinician, and then two, of course, like being exposed to uh the teams I eventually went on to take over, moving forward. And the number one thing uh my supervisor at the time always told me was that there's a difference between people who want to know what's happening and who need to know what's happening. And what you have to reflect upon is if I share this information, is it actually going to hurt or is this gonna help the happen?

SPEAKER_05 21:00

Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I love the way you put it. And it sounds like you had some really cool people in Arizona that they knew. I love it when a coach says, Don't tell me anything, I don't need to know.

SPEAKER_06 21:11

I think another thing I always, I guess like the second tip would also be uh empowering the athletes, right? Like empowering them to share what vulnerable information they need to share within the support systems that actually like help them function.

SPEAKER_05 21:26

Yeah, that's such a perfect uh way to just round that out about capacitating the athlete to have the conversation or accompanying the athlete or preparing them.

Mental Performance Versus Clinical Care

SPEAKER_05 21:36

Can I ask you a real clinical question? Uh, I'm because I I realize if I don't get this in, somebody's gonna be mad at me. How do you determine uh when an athlete needs uh mental performance coaching versus psychiatric or medical care or something heavier? What's your algorithm or how do you what questions help? You make that distinction, or how do you go about it? Like, what do you do?

SPEAKER_06 22:05

We always want to at least do a screening uh with one of our staff members, and then of course bringing in the squirt medicine team. Unfortunately, we had access to uh providers that were able to do some type of medication education and stuff like that. And we always look at it as where if you have to use psychiatric medication, that's okay. Like, no harm, no foul, no judgment, no uh no stigma exists when you know they're in our presence. But we just have to make sure we understand the reality of like, hey, like your level of baseline functioning is compromised or it is impaired right now. Does it stay that way forever? No. But if it is something that's been persistent, we always want like to um uh be precautious and be proactive, right? And then on the flip side, you know, from a general mental performance standpoint, you know, if someone is is struggling with, you know, visualization, general confidence, uh self-talk, they want to set new strategic goals, you know, those are two completely vastly different, you know, set of circumstances that we're able to service. And so I always like to think of it more so like, hey, if you just want to get better at what you do or just function on a daily basis, refocus on the mental performance piece a little bit more.

SPEAKER_05 23:21

Yeah, that's that's so that's really thorough how you how you put that together. I just love it. It just makes so much sense. And I I do you find that sometimes you have to explain the difference between mental performance and mental health to the environment? Because I know in my experience, sometimes they seem to be just fold into one thing for individuals who don't have experience with it. How do you go about explaining or educating about that?

SPEAKER_06 23:46

No, if, ands, or buts about it. Like if you are a human, you have mental health. Mental health impacts the way you think, you feel, and you behave, of course. When you have mental performances, more so how are you navigating, you know, various circumstances at an efficient level. And sometimes it has to be a high level. But I always like to say there's a complete difference between uh uh trying to shoot, you know, the game-winning free throw and taking a test. They're both performance-based, but those are two very different circumstances. And just like for mental health, you can have a bad day and feel upset, and then there's a difference between like you having thoughts of suicide, you know. And so I think it's just one of those things, like, I don't like to always say, like, oh yeah, you have to use the extreme examples, but when you create that gap in between the spectrums, uh, I feel like people are able to understand it a lot more, especially their their stress tolerance, but of course the distress tolerance. Um, people can reflect and just recognize, like, oh wow, I'm just having a bad day, like, and that's okay. Or, hey, wellness-wise, I think it's such a great um kind of like the middleman in between each one, right? People would be like, Oh, I had a bad day. And it's like, I just didn't sleep and I didn't eat, but I'm not at risk of hurting myself or at risk of hurting others or you know, being in a place where I can't function on my day-to-day duties and everything. Like maybe someone who has like severe depression. So it's always it's a nuance, but I think when people understand the vast uh differences between it on the education piece, that's what makes it easier to respond.

Race History And Athlete Safety

SPEAKER_05 25:26

And when I was preparing to talk with you, I saw that you had a lot of experience in identity work, culture work, uh, and and the intersect or the interface between culture and performance. Do you do you feel, think, or have you experienced that people, uh athletes of color might have different experiences or processing of what's happening in the athletic environment and ecosystem than athletes who are not of color? Oh, a hundred percent. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 26:03

And I think that's where uh going all the way all the way back to my undergrad days, um, one of my favorite classes was, or there was two of my favorite classes. It was, I believe, sport. I think it was called sport in American Society or like sport in society, and then um it was either called African Americans of the sport or like multicultural athletes in the sport. And I think when you take a step back and kind of instead of if we take off our uh psychology hats and we put on our historian hat, the history of black athletes in particular or BIPOC athletes, it's very unique on how the whole entire human history has evolved into, of course, where we are now. But especially when you take into account uh the development of sport all the way back, I think like what, like the late 1800s, early 1900s when sport took off, there was like an entire system that operated without BIPOC athletes. And that's like just what it was. And that's why uh, you know, when you hear athletes that break the color barrier, or you hear about uh athletes being like the first, you know, ethnic athlete or you know, whatever, to do something, there's a huge history there for a reason because at first it wasn't even designed for them to actually be there in the first place. So taking account the history, right? Now, of course, where we're at now and where we want to go in the future, yes, things have gotten better, but there's still a lot of work to be done. And I think I always cried uh, you know, non-ethnic or non-uh minority athletes that use their platform to bring uh awareness to these issues. Um, and then of course, just like the athletes of color that do use their platform to create change, you know, systematically in and outside of sport, it matters because if sport is one of the most unifying things in human uh history that unites us, that inspires us, and uh pushes us to go beyond what we're capable of, when you look at some of the barriers that were there, how can we reach those goals? And so you have to hold yourself to estimate, not only for the athlete, but especially from the higher ups, right? From the executive level, the coaching level, the support system level, and of course the athletic level.

SPEAKER_05 28:26

Well, that's very important. And I love how you put a historical context in there so that we can't deny the history of what was, yeah, that might be informing what is. In your experience, and you probably can't answer this in any detail, and I would understand that. Have black students or athletes ever told you privately about experiences that really affect them in ways that the department or sort of will not wouldn't be able to handle publicly. Uh, do you do you run into that at all?

SPEAKER_06 29:01

Uh a few times, you know, it does happen, right? It's the reality. I think one of the hardest parts is uh, and it's still happening to this day, right? Especially athletes who are at um, you know, PWI institutions that are based in the South. It was like huge history just alone of what that actually means, you know, nowadays when you have athletes who are uncomfortable with leaving like the college vicinity, like the college town vicinity, because of potential risk of you know, some type of racial issue or some type of just safety issue. And I think, you know, that's a that's one extreme example, because you know the southern parts of uh America has always had a uh a very strong and prevalent history with like racial issues in all aspects, education, jobs, but of course with sport. And I think you know, when athletes are able to talk about some of the ethnic challenges that you know go into their life, and of course, like you said, the multicultural identity piece, it's very important, not only for us to hold space for that, but it's very important for these universities to like make the necessary policies to make sure that athletes feel protected for whatever reason um, you know, the circumstance causes, because it's it there's a reason why they're so different when you know non non-uh ethnic or non-minority athletes face some type of uh uh backlash or some type of experience. There's a difference why there's a barrier between what it means like for a white athlete to go through something, and of course, like an African-American, an Asian, a Native American, an Indian, whatever the uh athlete ethnicity that you align with, your nationality, because of just the historical context that goes above and beyond sport. And so I think when universities are made aware of it in a preventative, proactive, you know, forward-thinking type of way, it's always going to be a lot easier to make some type of changes rather than having to face the backlash when something negative happens and then it's a reactive, uh a reactive change.

SPEAKER_05 31:11

Yeah, that makes so much sense the way you put that. And I wish we had more time to really go deep into this. It's like I'm telling you, one, you have to write the book, two, we have to give you your own show where you can actually sit down and we can explore these issues in depth. And I and I don't and I'm hoping that I'm not rushing by asking another question because you have so many areas of just proficiency and expertise. I just wanted to throw this in. And we we will come back to what you just shared uh in another podcast.

Masculinity And The Cost Of Silence

SPEAKER_05 31:40

But um, how about race and masculinity? Uh and uh just spending a moment with masculinity uh for a second, uh, have you ever encountered where race and masculinity uh and the various expectations that are on males, specifically males of color, um uh that that speak that that affect their ability to express what they really feel um uh or that or that leads to fear or loneliness or feeling overwhelmed or uncertain or leading to identity problems or issues. Has that come up and how do you navigate them?

SPEAKER_06 32:20

No, absolutely. I think uh that's why one of my favorite, I mean, I loved all my populations I got to serve over these years, but obviously one of my favorite ones is working with male clients, and you know, whether they were, you know, white, black, Latino, Asian, whatever the case may be. Vulnerability is vulnerability. And I think when more men recognize that the true strength and empowerment comes from being vulnerable, a lot of that loneliness, a lot of that toxic masculinity, a lot of that uh sometimes like survivor skill can naturally, I don't like to always say like go away immediately, but there's not a lot of space for it to grow in your life because you're allowing yourself to, as a human, like yes, where uh there's uh the the gender aspect, there's the ethnic aspect, there's the professional role aspect, everything we're all human. So, like when people, especially men, recognize the the powers actually in being vulnerable, creating communities, you know, that they feel safe in, and using their platform to acknowledge, like, hey, just because I went through this, it doesn't make me weak because I went through it. It makes me uh embody the essence of like the weakness, it's the strength because I was able to acknowledge and you know, overcome some severe issue that impacted the way I see and function in the world. Because now when you're able to be vulnerable, kind of like you said, uh the vulnerability is where the wisdom is.

SPEAKER_05 33:54

Yeah, that's just so powerful.

Grief For A Lost Identity

SPEAKER_05 33:57

Let me switch gears about grief. Uh, and I wanted to talk to you because I know you do some grief work as well. I'm wondering though, in your work with athletes, if you've seen other forms of grief that athletes might go through specifically, um, that you may want to comment on. What forms of grief have you seen in athletes uh that people around them may not recognize even as grief?

SPEAKER_06 34:22

I think one of the biggest ones, of course, goes back to identity, right? So, like your lifestyle as an athlete is no longer the persistent thing that you're constantly working toward. So, I'll give you the perfect example. My per my uh personal experience of grief, when I um, you know, got dismissed from the team at West Virginia, I literally couldn't comprehend and fathom what it meant to not be a football player anymore. Because, yes, the circumstances were very unique, but I was like, no, there's no way I just like I just lost my identity like that. I was like, I'm gonna come back, you know, it's the it's the athlete that never gets out mentality. And I tried out twice and they still didn't take me back. And so I had to actually come to terms with like, no, Michael, like your your college athlete career, it's over. And like that form of grief is so it's so heavy because when it's everything you put your whole life to, when it's something you have multiple years to continue to blossom and grow, and it's just taken away from you. Yeah, you have other identities you can explore, but if you don't learn how to like grieve and accept that grief, um, it's gonna haunt you. And that's why a lot of people, you know, even professional athletes to this day, they always say uh a lot of the um the common trends is like after they retire, so whether they you know actually retire, uh whether they had a season or a career-ending injury, uh, whether you know they just they decide to quit, like whether it's gonna be. One of the common trends a lot of people say is like I didn't know who I was outside of so when you grieve an identity, that's one of the hardest things. Rather than like, yes, grieving grieving the the loss of someone physically, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, that's always gonna be there. Because um, death is the natural phenomenon in life, but the uh the grief of an identity is one of the one of the hardest and easiest things to overlook because it's just like, oh yeah, you don't play sports no more. Like, you know, life goes on, like you gotta keep going. It's like, yeah, but not all everyone was ready to move on. So I think grief of an identity is one of the core ones.

Building A Self Beyond Sport

SPEAKER_05 36:41

That's so powerful, man, so rich. And I'm gonna push the envelope here and ask you, how do you help an athlete develop an identity that can survive this, survive the injury, survive reduced playing time, survive transfer, graduation, all of the things we're talking about? How do you help them with that? Is can they be helped or how do you help them?

SPEAKER_06 37:02

Oh, yeah, absolutely. They definitely can be helped. I think one of the hardest things I've ever had to do is work with athletes who are, you know, injured or having a bad season, like whatever the case may be, overcome the fact that there's more to them than just being the athlete. And one of the biggest things I always like to do technique-wise, is taking the skills that they have as an athlete and applying it into, of course, like you know, their schoolwork and everything, but really challenging them to see themselves function outside of sport. Now, especially, you know, a lot of athletes are like, oh, when I'm done being an athlete, like I'm gonna go into sport coaching or I'm gonna go into training. Great, like there's nothing wrong with that. But one of my favorite things was when I got to work with athletes that like did something that's the complete opposite of sport. And they had to develop a life of, you know, uh especially if it comes to like job training, like getting an internship, um, finding a part-time job, you know, maybe in the summer when they're off school. Um the athletes that use their platform to develop their identity while they are an athlete have a farther higher uh success rate than people who wait till their athletic identity is completely over to then start over. Now, is it impossible after you uh wait till your athletic identity is over to start? No, it's not impossible. But there's something very empowering when you are a collegiate or a professional athlete that's you know currently active and everything, and there's a uh desire and a higher need of learning in education for something that is completely quote unquote outside the norm. So I love athletes that, you know, have, especially that from like the collegiate standpoint, like they have a challenging major in like biomechanical engineering or mechanical engineering or chemistry or you know, medicine, like whatever the case may be, because they know they see themselves as a different version of themselves down the road. When you're an athlete and all you know is ball, whether you're a man or a woman, one of the hardest things is like when you have all this free time, right? They're like, I didn't know what to do with myself. I'm like, I know exactly what you can do. Go back to school. You can go back to school, you can join a community group, you can um, you know, as I guess self-educate yourself, you know, depending on what you want to do. But you put yourself back in new ecosystems, new environments like we just talked about earlier, and you test yourself and you create different variations of success that don't have a win or loss outcome.

SPEAKER_05 39:38

And isn't your life a living example to every athlete out there that there is life after sport, that there is something you can do that elevates you or catapults you into another dimension? You live that.

SPEAKER_06 39:50

I hope my story continues to be the catalyst for a lot of people. There's different processes and there's different phases in life. But if you don't put yourself actively in these environments, you're never gonna know who you are, naturally. But I think athletes are some of the uh the perfect human beings to develop multiple identities in a you know functioning way because we already have that work ethic, we already have that type of leadership capability, we already have that creative thinking and mental confidence in resilient. So you're just transferring all those skills that you just naturally do from an athlete standpoint, and you put it in a personal or professional identity. And especially the cool thing about identity, it's like it's almost limitless. Because then once we get into, you know, uh a religious or spiritual identity, that's its own unique aspect. When you get into, of course, like we talked about last time I was on the podcast. Um uh when you get into identity of like having a family, like when you're a mom or you're a dad, that is completely different. But are you putting yourself in positions to succeed in that along the way, of course? Everyone's story is different, but it's a it's a lifelong journey.

SPEAKER_05 41:03

Absolutely.

The Emotional Cost Of Being A Brand

SPEAKER_05 41:05

And I'm wondering if there's an emotional cost that accompanies these kinds of opportunities that you've come across or no.

SPEAKER_06 41:13

Yes, there's always gonna be an emotional cost, right? I think that's that's like a core aspect. That's why executive decision making is so uh prevalent within the collegiate landscape because before COVID, or what was it, before 2021, before the ruling even passed, like you're just an amateur athlete and you go to class and you compete and you play your collegiate sport. When you throw in these uh these uh multi-billion dollar opportunities for these athletes, there's pros and just like anything, there's cons. And I think athletes uh you know, you owe it to yourself to explore what you want to make the most of, you know, these limited four to five years for yourself. A lot of people talk one thing, a circumstance gets presented to them, and then they do the complete opposite.

SPEAKER_05 42:02

Yeah, brilliantly said, man, brilliantly captured is always you really need it because I feel like athletes have to perform, they have to be there's so many roles now with all of what's going on, right? The performer, the student, you're the performer, you're the student, you're the brand, you're the business, whatever, all at the same time. And that's quite a bit. That's right. It's so important that folks like you exist to help not help athletes and high performers navigate these choppy waters. Looking forward to bringing you back on. We come we accomplished a lot. So we did a sequel here, we we guarded it in two uh sessions, but would you be willing to come back onto the sweet spot to talk more about the race, the ethnicity, some of the tougher topics that we just began to touch on today. And and would you? I'm going for the three-peat. So yes, I will be back for the three-peat.

Legacy After Titles Are Gone

SPEAKER_05 42:57

Yeah, you know, I one last thing as we close out. When the titles are gone, right? When the titles are gone, the statistics are gone, the accolades are gone, the accomplishments are gone. Um as you think about an athletic career.

SPEAKER_06 43:14

What remains when everything is gone, when everything is complete, number one, you're gonna ask yourself, are you proud of yourself? And then people are gonna, you're gonna have to ask other people, what did your journey, what did your influence mean to other people? Because of course, you know, as a humanity standpoint, you know, the greats that you know we analyzed, especially over these last, you know, um several decades, especially from a sports standpoint, there are people who transcend the game. There's people that change the game, there's people that elevate the game, there's people that push the game. And it's one of those things like when it's all said and done, and you're you know, uh, we always make analogies when your jerseys and the rafters, um. People are always gonna remember what you either you know directly if you have that experience, like how did you influence other people? And I think for me, being in this position, I think that's why before we wrap up, one of the biggest sources of identity that I always have to lead and I always have to give myself props for is the person you're talking to, uh, who got kicked off the team, you know, as a sophomore. I was a Pizza Hut delivery driver. You were a Pizza Hut delivery guy? Pizza Hut delivery driver. And the reason I bring that up is because just never to knock or put down anybody who delivers, you know, uh food or works in the food service industry. I was very fortunate, I'm very happy about um the type of person I was when I was going through that. But the reason I always bring that up is because when I was at my lowest peak or my lowest uh low, the reason I always say the P-TIP delivery driver story is such a core aspect is because I didn't allow myself to just stay there, especially in the position of where it's led me into my whole career. I think, like you said, when it's all said and done, one of the biggest things I want people to remember is like, damn, Mike, Mike accomplished all of this. You know, he impacted this person's life, he started this foundation, he he he changed the podcast game with Dr. Sweet. And it was one of those things that's like it's meant to live in pizzas. Wow. One of those things where it's like, it doesn't matter where you are, it doesn't matter where you start, and sometimes it doesn't matter where you finish. It's one of those things, like you said, when it's all said and done, and you get to take a step back and let your legacy speak for itself. See now it's it's easy to talk about the the highlights, right? I can easily sit here and be like, oh yeah, you know, I was a strength and conditioned coach at a at a globally recognized boarding school, and I was a division one athlete, and I worked with division one athletes, I worked with pro athletes, all that stuff is cool, but I do not forget where I came from. And I always I hope it inspires people that not only anything is possible, but uh you are worthy as well.

SPEAKER_05 46:18

You know, just when I thought I couldn't admire you anymore, like there was just no other place to go.

SPEAKER_03 46:28

Wow, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:29

Congratulations on who you are, man. Like the integrity, the authenticity, the courage, the courage, the fearlessness to just speak the truth. And you give I I'm inspired. I think several people are gonna have hope. Yes, just because you've shown what's possible.

SPEAKER_06 46:47

That's the mission. I think, like you said, when it's all said, I hope my legacy is that I gave people hope.

SPEAKER_05 46:55

Amen to that. Well, God bless you, brother. Thank you so much, Michael Manswell.

SPEAKER_04 47:04

Oh man, so we definitely have to have you back on the sweet spot. Besides, for so long for success, brother. We bless you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you, sir.